Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Ziggurat said:
EC's point wasn't really about a hypothetical, it was about a principle.
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Which is why I replied with a hypothetical testing whether her underlying principle takes popular support into consideration at all.
 
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d4m10n said:
Are you pretending that one wanker is somehow representative of everyone who claims to experience gender euphoria?
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Nope.
What I (and others) are trying to get across to you (unsuccessfully thus far) is that it IS representative of the worse of TIMs. This has been the point all along.
When it comes to keeping people safe, public policy must take a "lowest common denominator" approach .
 
theprestige said:
I'm proposing a return to the honor system, with legal protections for citizens that try to enforce it.
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d4m10n said:
You don't really need legal protections for segregation by sex (observed at birth) or gender (declared at the moment) if you've repealed the laws under which plaintiffs file suit against places of public accommodation for treating customers differently based on these characteristics
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Have you been living in a cave for the past ten years @d4m10n ?

We have routinely seen cases where women have complained about or rightly tried to eject TIMs from women's toilets or safe spaces, and the TIMs have been deemed to be the victims, while the women have been pilloried, threatened and labelled tranny bashing bigots for standing up for their rights to have safe spaces free of unwanted males. The case of Sandie Peggie is a current case in point as is the case of Jennifer Melle. The case of the UPenn womens swim team is another, and there are hundreds more just like it. Both of my daughters have had this sort of thing happen to them.
 
Ziggurat said:
Her entire point was to illustrate the limitations of relying on popular support.
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If we've already freed up the private pools, spas, and gyms to set their own policies (as I suggested earlier) what bright path is there to set the policies for federal and state managed facilities, other than democracy? Shall we appoint a gender czar who has unquestionably correct views?
 
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d4m10n said:
It is indeed ominous to imply that you'd like to regulate people because they suffer from AGP, a psychological condition which isn't in the DSM and thus cannot be ascertained with any degree of medical consensus.
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It *is* in the DSM. Or are you going to get all inanely pedantic and pretend like this being a specific item under the more general diagnosis of transvestic disorder somehow negates it? I mean, there's a diagnosis of transvestic disorder in the section of DSM that addresses paraphilias, and under transvestic disorder there's a classification of expressing with autogynephila.

Like, I've literally shared the language on this from DSM and from diagnosis schema related to autogynephilia a few times now. Why pretend like it doesn't exist?
 
d4m10n said:
How can you claim to know with any confidence that these are actual transgender people rather than pseudonymous trolls?
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I don't even know how to react to this.

On the one hand... we're told that we have to accept as absolutely true whatever a transgender person tells us about themselves. On the other hand... we're also being told to ignore what transgender people tells us about themselves.

Do we need to rename No True Scotsman? Is it only "real transperson" when what they're saying aligns with the ideological narrative, and it's a "fake transperson" when it doesn't?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Or are you going to get all inanely pedantic and pretend like this being a specific item under the more general diagnosis of transvestic disorder somehow negates it?
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My fault, I take that part back.

Assuming you are talking about DSM-5 302.3 in particular, you seem to be claiming that people who claim to be experiencing "gender euphoria" would (or should) nearly always be diagnosed with this condition, on account of their co-occuring erections. Is that correct?
 
d4m10n said:
No, I'm limiting myself to narratives which are directly on topic instead of cherry picking Reddit for viral content from pseudonymous posters. "Gender euphoria" was coined by a certain community, it isn't remotely biased to go to them to ask what it should be taken to mean.
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Sure, sure. It was coined by the same community that demands Transwomen are WOMEN no questions asked, and the same community that has been trying to forcibly alter the meaning of the word "woman" so that it refers to a set of regressive stereotypes and special gendery soul feelings and is entirely divorced from sex. That's the same community that continues to assert that sex is a spectrum and isn't binary, and that some people can have an entirely normal male karyotype and an entirely normal male phenotype and an entirely normal male pubertal development, but can also somehow have a magically female mind, and therefore they're really a female because they say that's how they feel.

FFS. How about you go gather up the preferred language that pedophiles use for their community, and then insist that if we normal people refer to them as pedos instead of MAPs, we're the ones in the wrong? I mean, seriously. Go ahead and limit yourself to the narratives and language that radical islamists use for themselves to justify committing acts of terrorism - that makes just as much sense as this BS does.
 
d4m10n said:
Imagine if only 20% of females objected and you still said that was grounds to maintain segregation by sex instead of changing it to the policy favored by the other 80%.
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YOU CANNOT CONSENT ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE

Glenda: Holy cow, there's a male-bodied person in the female showers, totally butt naked, with their wedding tackle dangling... and they seem to be paying a lot more attention to my breasts than I'm comfortable with. I really think that male needs to be evicted from the female showers!

Hildegaard: Oh, no, don't worry. I told "her" that it was just fine, and that we're all okay with "her" ladydick being exposed.
 
Guys... we did this already. DSM-5 does not indicate that AGP is a disorder of any kind. It's a specifier to what another actual disorder stems from. Kind of like wanting to be thin/attractive is what anorexia might stem from. Wanting to be attractive is not a disorder. Anorexia is.

AGP is nothing but a way for certain people to make transpeople sound like they have a mental illness. Please knock it off. People can read this.
 
d4m10n said:
Well if you want to bring facts into it then I'd reject the hypothetical from @Emily's Cat on other grounds altogether. The premise that men and women would be 80% apart on a question like this is rather silly, especially with men overwhelmingly espousing the progressive position despite voting 5-10% more conservatively than women.
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:rolleyes: It was a perfectly cromulent illustration of the tyranny of the majority.

Additionally... I'm pretty sure that males are less accepting of transgender identified males using female spaces and services... because males absolutely unquestionably know that there are a fair number of unethical pervy males out there who would absolutely exploit the situation.
 
Emily's Cat said:
YOU CANNOT CONSENT ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE
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What bright path is there to set the policies for federal and state managed facilities, other than democracy?
Emily's Cat said:
It was a perfectly cromulent illustration of the tyranny of the majority.
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When you're okay with tyranny of the minority, you're not exactly in a position to complain about the majority.
 
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d4m10n said:
At no point in the last ten years were those laws repealed, unless you count the fairly recent ruling against the Scottish Ministers.
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They have been subverted and allowed by governments that have been ideologically captured, such as Australia (see Giggle v Tickle) and Scotland (For Women Scotland v The Scottish Ministers). People have been LIED TO about the law by organizations such as Tavistock, Mermaids and Stonewall.

When organisations LIE about the law, governments agree with those LIES, businesses believe those LIES, and Police enforce those LIES as if they were the law, then "At no point in the last ten years were those laws repealed" is pretty much a meaningless statement. It ain't worth Jack **** !!
 
Emily's Cat said:
Additionally... I'm pretty sure that males are less accepting of transgender identified males using female spaces and services... because males absolutely unquestionably know that there are a fair number of unethical pervy males out there who would absolutely exploit the situation.
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Indeed we do!! I would speculate that the % of men who object to TIMs getting access to safe spaces reserved for their wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers, grandmothers, daughters, grandaughters and female colleagues and friends... i.e. women, would be a long way above 50% - probably up in the 80%. The more they understand the implications, the higher the percentage who would object.
 
d4m10n said:
My fault, I take that part back.

Assuming you are talking about DSM-5 302.3 in particular, you seem to be claiming that people who claim to be experiencing "gender euphoria" would (or should) nearly always be diagnosed with this condition, on account of their co-occuring erections. Is that correct?
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No, it's not correct. At what point did you lose the ability to comprehend context? You used to be better than this, d4m10n.

I conveyed that YOU should perhaps look into how the phrase "gender euphoria" is OFTEN used IN PRACTICE by transgender identified males when THEY ARE DESCRIBING THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE.

You're the one who took it upon yourself to turn that into a black-and-white topic, and to furthermore insist that sexual arousal isn't part of it, and then to take it a few steps beyond my post and now assert that I've claimed that all claims of gender euphoria are therefore diagnostically AGP.

What I myself will actually say is that a preponderance of self-declared transwomen feel quite emboldened to share their highly sexual views of their identity with the entire world, and to talk about the erections they get while dressing in female clothing, or when using female spaces, or when being addressed with female pronouns. It may not be all self-declared transwomen, but it's enough to make it something that should be considered as a real thing and be taken into account.

I think it's absurd of you to try to handwave it away via rhetorical cartwheels.
 
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