theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The debate over trans rights in public policy would be very different if it were actually about women demanding the entitlement to override sex segregation whenever they want.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
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p0lka
Illuminator
In the parkrun rules no one is overriding sex segregation as there is none. If by woman you meant female then yes it would be interesting to see a world where females were doing the same things that males are doing now.
p0lka
Illuminator
What is the obsession with embarrassment in this thread?
It's been said multiple times to address an argument instead of actually addressing it?
Ron Obvious
Graduate Poster
About as interesting as an all-midget NBA team.
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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Correct. That's true despite the fact that the labels suggest sex segregation.
Are you starting to clue in yet why changing the labels doesn't matter?
Why would they? How would they? Do you know why there is a difference?
p0lka
Illuminator
Na, a world with females in charge instead of what's historically happened I think, would be a vastly different place.
Nobody would be subconsciously penis power measuring to cause wars etc.
We might see a world where everyone is starting wars subconsciously according to breast size or something. We might see cardigan knitting wars over the availability of wool or a warm coco or something.
Ron Obvious
Graduate Poster
Sounds sexist to me.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
There was a bike race discussed earlier in this thread in which a trans identifying male won the women's race with a time which, if they had competed as their actual sex, would have placed them 108th. Can you see why the women who ended up with silver rather than gold, bronze rather than silver etc might object?
Now imagine a trans identifying woman coming 108th in the men's race with a time which, if they had competed as their actual sex, would have placed them 1st. Can you see why that would be less likely to cause objections from the medal winning men?
p0lka
Illuminator
Yeah incredibly. I'm mostly joking about the cardigan knitting wars or the crochet fuel starvation that might possible ensue as that's gender based.
But a society that that has been evolutionary driven where the females are in charge? I would like to see that.
p0lka
Illuminator
No, I'm seeing a situation where Parkrun had vague rules where you and others thought you knew what the rules were, but actually didn't.
You're moaning about something that was in the rules.
I get the point you are trying to make, but i still think that getting rid of gender labels and just referring them as sex labels is better.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Thats one way to let men override sex segregation whenever they want.
Nobody is this confused, not even you. "Woman" is a meaningless term, decoupled from sex. Nobody uses it that way, except on purpose, to obfuscate.
Women already do these things. They dress how they want. They own property. They chart their own careers. They vote, and they occupy elected offices. They manage companies. They serve in the military.
Wherever it matters to do as men do, women already do it, whenever they want. There is very little in society that is rightly reserved for men. Women don't need to override sex segregation because they have already overridden all the sex segregation that got in the way of their equality.
It's predominantly men who have this problem, of wanting unrestricted access to exactly the few things society rightly reserves for women.
This vice versa nonsense of yours is a red herring.
p0lka
Illuminator
I think sports have been making a mistake for a long time, they've been calling them man sports or woman sports, when really they should have been calling them female or male sports in the first place...none of this confusion would be happening if that had happened.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Nobody is confused.
p0lka
Illuminator
Gender roles annoy me and I wish people would just be themselves, but I know people that want to be referred to as a 'woman' whilst having a penis, and I know people who want to be referred to as a 'man' with a vagina.
premise incorrect.....conclusion ignoreable.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I think there have always been women who will sell out their sisters to curry favour with men. Concubines were probably doing it in ancient Persia. Nearer modern times, there were plenty women prepared to announce loudly that they didn't want the vote and didn't see why any woman should have the vote and who joined loudly in the abuse of the suffragettes. It's always about being on the side of the men so that you're not the one getting the abuse. It's sometimes called the "pick me!" syndrome.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Obviously, I am aware of the reaction Parkrun got when they removed the female rankings and records. I didn't think you were though, as you seemed so naive about the entire situation. It was a response to the complaints they were getting that men's times were being included in the female rankings. It's the only reasonable thing to do if you're not prepared to kick the men out of the female category, something they were apparently not prepared to do. However, predictably, this didn't satisfy the disgruntled women runners in the slightest.
A better solution is to make it explicit that the female category is for females only, and to purge all times and rankings of any men who have competed as "female".
What does it matter what the men who registered as women were, as regards "change of gender"? They're still men, still male, and will always be male. Sports are played with bodies, not delusional mental illnesses. But that raises another interesting point. Naturally, if challenged, all of these men would claim to be "transwomen". How would you police that, if that were the rule? (It's not a legal category in this country anyway.) Instead of keeping men out, you're trying to keep a subset of men out (those who are not "changing their gender") while allowing a different subset of men to remain. That's a great deal harder than simply keeping all men out. It's easy to discover who is male and who is female. It's not so easy - actually it's impossible - to tell which men really have some sort of lady feelz and which don't. Literally impossible where all you have to do to be a transwoman is to declare yourself one.
What Parkrun are doing is indefensible. It's also illegal here.
Rolfe
Adult human female
1. Of course women can say they're men and be counted in the male statistics if they want to. Inexplicably, they never do. Women with the trans mental illness register as female, or other, or "not prepared to say". Surely you can work out why.
2. The women who don't like the rules are people.
3. The rules are not vague at all. The categories labelled male and female are both, explicitly, open to anyone at all. That's not vague, it's simply dishonest.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Yes, but despite the fact that there are about as many TIFs as there are TIMs in the general population, that hardly ever happens. Males entering female categories is hugely more prevalent than females entering male categories.
Can you work out why that might be... (take all the time you need on that one).
Rolfe
Adult human female
The categories are labelled "male" and "female". That's where we came in - we were pointing out to you that labelling the categories as "male" and "female" does not prevent male people from entering the female category. How would you now suggest categories should be labelled to ensure sex segregation?
It may be different where you are, but where I am then if you label categories as male and female, then you are obliged to exclude females from the male category and males from the female category.