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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I'm not defending cheats, cheats I hadn't heard about.

I'm saying perfection is the enemy of good.

You're looking for a perfect system. I just pointed out problems with your "solution".
 
Orphia Nay said:
I'm not defending cheats,
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If not, you are making a stunning impression of doing so.
Orphia Nay said:
cheats I hadn't heard about.
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I don't believe you.

EVERY biological male, whether they are trans identified or not, who enters a female category in a sporting event, is a cheat -without exception. That males are doing this has been discussed repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere.
Orphia Nay said:
I'm saying perfection is the enemy of good.
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No, that doesn't apply here. As long as biological males continue to be allowed in women's spaces, there can be no "good"
Orphia Nay said:
You're looking for a perfect system.
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No, she is looking for a fair and just system. Males being permitted in female categories is neither.
Orphia Nay said:
I just pointed out problems with your "solution".
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And you were wrong about that.
 
Orphia Nay said:
I'm not defending cheats, cheats I hadn't heard about.

I'm saying perfection is the enemy of good.

You're looking for a perfect system. I just pointed out problems with your "solution".
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I posted all that a couple of pages back. I think you just didn't want to hear about them.

What we have now is not good in any sense of the word. Male people, men, are being tolerated and even encouraged to register for their times to be recorded as female. They are stealing ranking places and accolades from women, who are pissed off about it, but are being told that they are in the wrong and mean with it.

It may well be difficult to impossible to devise a perfect system, though I suspect that something with a pretty good rate of accuracy wouldn't actually be all that hard. Nevertheless what I am advocating is that something should be done. Starting with repealing that ridiculous rule that says that anyone who wants to can be female.

Because at the moment these men are moral cheats, but they're not technically cheating. What they are doing is within the rules. (Although these rules are actually illegal in this country!) Even an honour system where people who complained about an obvious man registered as female were taken seriously and the complaint acted on would be an improvement.

The brazen entitlement of these men, their determination to carry on as they please regardless of any rules and even the actual law is beyond a joke. Many organisations seem terrified to say no to them, for fear of the spoiled-toddler tantrum that will ensue. Well, they're going to have to start, in this country at least.
 
I've noticed that there's a subgenre of trans rights apologies: Some people feel they must acknowledge that certain policies and outcomes are bad, but cannot quite bring themselves to acknowledge that these arise from an entire bad agenda, and that they're still allies of that agenda.

So you get these soft condemnations of specific scenarios, but no actual breaking of ranks with the whole rotten movement itself.
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP> for breach of rule 12
 
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Rolfe said:
If it's only for fun then they shouldn't have any categories at all. They shouldn't publicise winners. Many women do care about their performance in the female category, and it's being completely skewed over by selfIDing men.
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Is this your solution, Rolfe?

You're obviously not aware of the huge amount of backlash parkrun recieved a year or two ago for removing just a small fraction of the stats they used to publish.

Part of the fun is improving your time, or being within a certain time. Seeing other participants' times is important to so many people.

I'd like to see a better solution, but I can't think what.

As for the 230 results Mara posted about, are you sure these are not pre-change-of-gender results?

I'm not defending trans women in women's sport. I'm against that. I'm defending parkrun.
 
I'm breaking ranks with some friends who think transwomen should be allowed to compete against women, so don't feel so clever.
 
Rolfe said:
I posted all that a couple of pages back. I think you just didn't want to hear about them.

What we have now is not good in any sense of the word. Male people, men, are being tolerated and even encouraged to register for their times to be recorded as female. They are stealing ranking places and accolades from women, who are pissed off about it, but are being told that they are in the wrong and mean with it.

It may well be difficult to impossible to devise a perfect system, though I suspect that something with a pretty good rate of accuracy wouldn't actually be all that hard. Nevertheless what I am advocating is that something should be done. Starting with repealing that ridiculous rule that says that anyone who wants to can be female.

Because at the moment these men are moral cheats, but they're not technically cheating. What they are doing is within the rules. (Although these rules are actually illegal in this country!) Even an honour system where people who complained about an obvious man registered as female were taken seriously and the complaint acted on would be an improvement.

The brazen entitlement of these men, their determination to carry on as they please regardless of any rules and even the actual law is beyond a joke. Many organisations seem terrified to say no to them, for fear of the spoiled-toddler tantrum that will ensue. Well, they're going to have to start, in this country at least.
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So I note that parkrun explicitly states that people do NOT register by sex, but by gender.

My understanding is that the Supreme Court ruling stated that sex means biological sex and therefore it would not apply to these rules, whatever we think of them.

For what it's worth I agree that parkrun should record by sex, which is clearly not what parkrun thinks.

Here's what I would propose:

Given that sex is only really relevant for things like first female and course records, those found to be competing as females when they are actually biologically male, should have their records expunged. There should be a process for this happening, presumably in the same way that people who cut the course, or compete in the wrong age group would be cheating. That said, I don't know what kind of process exists.

Beyond that, I think it is pointless to police whether the person coming in 27th is a man or woman. Most of the people who do parkrun, even those who not sympathetic to self-ID do not really care about cheating in parkrun, to be honest.

You can see that's the case from reddit forums on parkrun....

https://www.reddit.com/r/parkrun/comments/1lb7rj8/i_saw_a_woman_cheat_today
 
smartcooky said:
If not, you are making a stunning impression of doing so.

I don't believe you.

EVERY biological male, whether they are trans identified or not, who enters a female category in a sporting event, is a cheat -without exception. That males are doing this has been discussed repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere.

No, that doesn't apply here. As long as biological males continue to be allowed in women's spaces, there can be no "good"

No, she is looking for a fair and just system. Males being permitted in female categories is neither.

And you were wrong about that.
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Again, much of this rhetoric ignores that parkrun is not, for 99.9% of competitors about getting course records. The majority of people who compete there just do it for a laugh.

If you said to the vast majority of people running (or walking) in parkrun that you saw someone cheat, the response will likely be a shrug.
 
angrysoba said:
Again, much of this rhetoric ignores that parkrun is not, for 99.9% of competitors about getting course records. The majority of people who compete there just do it for a laugh.

If you said to the vast majority of people running (or walking) in parkrun that you saw someone cheat, the response will likely be a shrug.
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Well I can only speak for myself. I have run for most of my life. Never for a laugh.

The times I recorded have always been important to me. Your 99.9% figure is ridiculous. I am a parkrunner. I would report someone who cheated.
 
lionking said:
Well I can only speak for myself. I have run for most of my life. Never for a laugh.

The times I recorded have always been important to me. Your 99.9% figure is ridiculous. I am a parkrunner. I would report someone who cheated.
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This you?

lionking said:
I’m not sure Parkrun is an important issue at all. I’ve been a Parkrunner and I don’t think anyone gives a toss about who wins. To me it’s always been about individual times. I’ve won in my age bracket and
I don’t know who else came second and what gender they reported. It’s something that’s social and should not be treated seriously.
College and other competitive sports competitions are a different matter altogether.
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Hmmmm????
 
lionking said:
Did you miss my reference to individual times?
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No. Did you miss the part where you said nobody "gives a toss who wins"?

If all you are talking about is individual times being important to you, then what has that got to do with what gender the runners are?
 
angrysoba said:
No. Did you miss the part where you said nobody "gives a toss who wins"?

If all you are talking about is individual times being important to you, then what has that got to do with what gender the runners are?
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Seriously, you are embarrassing yourself.
 
Rolfe said:
Yes, quite. Men are allowed to say they are female and be counted in the female statistics. This is actually illegal in Britain.
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If you are getting that from the rules of parkrun, then equally, women are allowed to say they are male and be counted in the male statistics yeah?

Rolfe said:
You simply expect women to self-exclude if they don't like this? Always it's the women who have to give way so the men can have what they want. Every bloody time.
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No I never said that at all, I said that if people didn't like the rules then do something about it.

Rolfe said:
There are of course women protesting about this. It's even allowed to protest about it in this thread, and to point out that it is a breach of the Equalities Act. First get the rules the way they should be, then consider the practicalities of enforcing them. If there is no intent to enforce them, why have any rules at all?

It's not even as if this is a question of whom you run against. Everyone runs together. What could be more inclusive? It's entirely about people (men) screwing up the statistics of the female category by insisting on being counted in it, and actual women being not happy about this.
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Yeah the rules are vague and don't differentiate between gender and sex, especially if they (possibly unintentially?) pretend to do so.
 
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