Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Please see the excerpt from the wiki in post #9,167 regarding the extent to which CAIS individuals actually go down the Müllerian pathway.

I would argue that people "born without fallopian tubes, a cervix, or a uterus" didn't go far enough down that pathway for a pathway-based binary sorting algorithm to make much sense, especially when they are born with testicular tissue from the other pathway.

I'm not saying you cannot possibly come up with a sorting algorithm to put every individual one box or another; I am saying that just talking about the two pathways won't get you all the way there without adding some more detailed criteria.

I'm also saying—come to think of it—that these probably aren't actually the appropriate criteria to use when sorting people for purposes unrelated to individual health and fertility, which it to say that they won't work for most of the policy questions we've actually discussed in any detail here in this thread,
I was about to form my own answer, but then I saw this...

It doesn't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ matter. Transpeople don't have DSD's. The question of how to handle people with DSD's has nothing to do with the question of what to do with transpeople. Every attempt to conflate these issues is dishonest.
QFT and in reply...

The debate about DSD has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with the debate about transgender and gender ideology in general. Transgender people are NOT transgender because they have a DSD, and the reverse is also true.

And, as has been repeatedly pointed out in the "Strict Definitions..." thread, ALL humans with DSD can still be classified male or female. Rarely, this has to be by other means, e.g. reproductive architecture or chromosomal make-up (karyotype). It may be difficult to classify them, but they are always going to be classified as either male or female. There is NO THIRD SEX TO CLASSIFY THEM AS...

- There are only TWO gamete types in humans, Large and Small - there is NO third gamete type. The failure of a body to actually produce or to be able to produce gametes does NOT make them a different sex, and does not make them unable to be classified as either male or female

- There are only two sex chromosome types in humans, X and Y - there is NO "Z" sex chromosome in humans. Even if the chromosomes are not strictly XX or XY (for example XXY or XYY or some other combination) does NOT make them a different sex, and does not make them unable to be classified as either male or female

Therefore...

There are only two sexes in humans, female and male - sex is binary!
 
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If 'ring' or 'worm' was a gender label then you could compare it to 'tomboy', but 'ringworm' has nothing to do with gender or sex and to do with people thinking the ring was a parasite, hence 'worm'.
You are missing the point, which is not specific to gender in any way. Labels are not always exact. In fact, there's even a word specifically to describe names and labels which are not accurate when taken at face value: misnomer. And that term exists precisely because it's not really that uncommon. For example, "morning sickness" has nothing to do with mornings. "White chocolate" isn't chocolate at all. Etc, etc.

The fact that "tomboy" contains the word "boy" does not mean that tomboys are pretend boys. That doesn't follow linguistically, and it's false as a simple matter of fact. There is a reason "tomboy" contains "boy", but it's not the one you assert.
Your question is not relevant to the point at hand
It's very relevant to the point at hand. You have invested far too much significance in the label itself, ignoring its actual usage. Your previous level of analysis applied to ringworm would produce an erroneous conclusion.
 
No, it's not ambiguous in CAIS, it's interrupted. We could quibble all day about whether to consider CAIS individuals male or female, and perhaps never come to a full agreement. From an evolutionary perspective, they're male; from a medical perspective, they're female.
... and regardless, THEY ARE STILL ONE OR THE OTHER. This is the bit that @d4m10n is either ignoring, or pretending is not true. Even if its so confusing that we are unable to determine which they actually are, they can still only ever be one or the other.

Its like colours in the dark.

You have a box in your garage that contains ONLY widgets. All the widgets are identical in every respect, with one exception - half the widgets are red and the other half are green. Its pitch dark, and you cannot tell what colour any individual widget it... BUT YOU ABSOLUTELY KNOW THAT THEY ARE EITHER RED OR GREEN - pull any three widgets out and turn the lights on, and at least two of them will be the same colour. There is ZERO chance that one of the widgets will be blue!

Well sex is like that. We may not be able to determine which sex a CAIS individual is by observation, but we absolutely know they are going to be one or the other.
 
Literally nobody saw me as a "pretend boy". They saw me, quite rightly, as a young female who happened to enjoy doing things that were commonly assumed to be activities that young males liked. There was no pretense of any sort involved, not from anyone's perspective.
Yes I'm regretting using the the word 'pretend' as it wasn't what I meant and it's coming across all wrong, my fault.

I meant, back then 70's, calling a female a tomboy was referring to the things they do that isn't traditionally what females do.
No one had changed their sex and no one thought that they had changed their sex, but people have labelled them as a tomboy because they aren't acting like society said they should act as a female.
That indicates to me that regardless of sex, people would still be thought of as fitting this stereotypical role that people have in their heads. That's what gender is imo and it existed back in the 70's when I grew up.
 
You are missing the point, which is not specific to gender in any way. Labels are not always exact. In fact, there's even a word specifically to describe names and labels which are not accurate when taken at face value: misnomer. And that term exists precisely because it's not really that uncommon. For example, "morning sickness" has nothing to do with mornings. "White chocolate" isn't chocolate at all. Etc, etc.

The fact that "tomboy" contains the word "boy" does not mean that tomboys are pretend boys. That doesn't follow linguistically, and it's false as a simple matter of fact. There is a reason "tomboy" contains "boy", but it's not the one you assert.

It's very relevant to the point at hand. You have invested far too much significance in the label itself, ignoring its actual usage. Your previous level of analysis applied to ringworm would produce an erroneous conclusion.
I'm aware of the historical usage of 'tomboy'. I was referring to the 60's-80's usage of it in regards to growing up then, and Emily's Cat questioning whether gender was a separate thing from sex at that time.

edit: I hope the label has died out nowadays, as females should be able to play with whatever toys they want and wear whatever they want without judgement.
Same as males, they should be able to play with whatever toys they want and wear whatever they want without judgement.
 
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I'm gonna need you to elaborate on this, Darat. My current impression is that a significant part of why the whole GRA thing happened at all was because it allowed some males to transition to "women" and then they could legally marry another male without running afoul of UK's rather homophobic laws.

But perhaps my understanding is incomplete. Perhaps historically the majority of transsexuals in the UK have all been males who are sexually attracted to females.
How can I elaborate on saying "At that point, the T was pretty much exclusively comprised of very, very, very homosexual males " it wasn't, that's it.
 
You are missing the point, which is not specific to gender in any way. Labels are not always exact. In fact, there's even a word specifically to describe names and labels which are not accurate when taken at face value: misnomer. And that term exists precisely because it's not really that uncommon. For example, "morning sickness" has nothing to do with mornings. "White chocolate" isn't chocolate at all. Etc, etc.

The fact that "tomboy" contains the word "boy" does not mean that tomboys are pretend boys. That doesn't follow linguistically, and it's false as a simple matter of fact. There is a reason "tomboy" contains "boy", but it's not the one you assert.
Freemartins are rarely free, and almost never named Martin.

Aside: White chocolate is related to chocolate. It's made from cocoa butter, the fats extracted from the cocoa bean. Regular chocolate is made from the solids of the cocoa bean. Dark chocolate has a higher proportion of cocoa solids, and milk chocolate is diluted by... milk... as well as cocoa butter. Really high quality milk chocolate will use cocoa butter and milk fats as emulsifiers, and less of stuff like soy lecithin and parafin. That makes it really tasty and creamy, but also super melty.

I know this because cocoa solids give me migraines, but white chocolate doesn't :)
 
It's weird how many fluent English speakers can't wrap their heads around the fact that, in English, compound words don't always take the literal meanings of their constituent parts.
Unlike German

Panzerkampwagen (armoured fighting vehicle)...in English, that's a tank

Unterwasserboot (under water boat)... in English, that's a submarine
 
I'm aware of the historical usage of 'tomboy'. I was referring to the 60's-80's usage of it in regards to growing up then, and Emily's Cat questioning whether gender was a separate thing from sex at that time.

edit: I hope the label has died out nowadays, as females should be able to play with whatever toys they want and wear whatever they want without judgement.
Same as males, they should be able to play with whatever toys they want and wear whatever they want without judgement.
Thing is, gender isn't actually separate from sex.

Gender refers to all of the non-physical aspects that are associated with sex. This includes presentation, functional roles, and behaviors. And all of those are associated with sex, they're predicated on sex. Part of the feminist emphasis on gender as opposed to sex was to point out that sex isn't prescriptive with regard to those gendered aspects.

Sex is being of the male reproductive category in humans. The gender role associated with males is being a provider and defender, a hunter, a soldier, a bread-winner, etc. The gender presentation associated with males is pants, flat-soled shoes, short hair, short fingernails, no make-up etc. The gender behavior associated with males is decisiveness, control, aggression, etc. All of these are correlated with sex - some of them are very likely evolved behavioral tendencies that increase the likelihood of a male being able to attract a mate and pass on their genes.

But they're not prescriptive.

Being male doesn't mean that you must be required to wear pants - there's nothing about pants that excludes female from being able to wear them. And there's nothing about skirts that means males are incapable of wearing them. Who wears what types of garment are largely social convention - they're ways to signal our sex. But there's also a fair bit about clothing that is a direct result of sex. Both males and females can wear pants - but they're cut and shaped differently, because our physical bodies are different. If a female wears male cut pants, they're likely to be too loose through the waist and too tight through the thighs. If a male wears female-cut pants, they're likely to find they haven't got much room for their testicles. Hair, on the other hand, is pretty much entirely social. Our hair doesn't grow differently, it's not like male hair follicles only grow a few inches then stop. Both sexes can grow their hair quite long, and in some cultures long hair on males has been the standard. Thus hair length is entirely a social convention. Make-up is also largely a social convention... but it's a convention that is more associated with reproduction than many people realize. Foundation smooths skin, and smooth skin is an indicator of estrogen; high estrogen during ovulation gives females smooth almost shiny facial skin - so it's an indicator of reproductive readiness. Lipstick and blush mimic the visual effect of dilated capillaries in the lips and cheeks that occurs during arousal, mimicking sexual receptiveness.

Being male doesn't mean that you are required to be the breadwinner. Even if there's a reasonable evolutionary explanation for the division of labor along the lines of sex, those roles - those functions - can generally be performed by either sex is the need arises. Female lions are typically the hunters; the male lion's role is to protect the pride (especially the kittens) from other predators. But male lions are perfectly capable of hunting, and young lions who haven't established a pride do it all the time. Similarly, female lions can absolutely wreck a trespassing young lion or an over-adventurous hyena if needed. The division of labor along the lines of sex is one of efficiency and balance, not one of necessity.

The point of feminists discussing the social nature of gender roles and behaviors was never to demand that the two be treated as if they're entirely discrete and unrelated phenomena - the point was to emphasize that these are conventions that are not necessitated by sex. Males are just as capable of doing the dishes as are females. And there's no actual physical or biological reason that females cannot be CEOs of large companies. Conventions aren't rules.

Somewhere in the last couple of decades, activists got hold of this notion and distorted it so far out of whack that we now have people arguing that gender is completely separate from sex, with no relationship to it at all. They present it as if gender were arbitrary, as if at some point someone flipped a coin and said "heads, females wash the laundry, tails the males do it". And in the process of that errant (and foolish) idea, they've tried to appropriate all of the language that is associated with gender and pretend that those words have nothing at all to do with sex.

Including usurping the word that has literally meant "female human being".
 
It's weird how many fluent English speakers can't wrap their heads around the fact that, in English, compound words don't always take the literal meanings of their constituent parts.
It's not weird, it's a depressing observation of our educational system.

I've been considering this for a while, and a huge amount of arguments and hostility - especially ideological division - really seem to be driven by the inability of some people to maintain the distinction between literal and figurative language. Political discourse from any angle is rife with conflation of the two. I find it borderline distressing, because the ability to use figurative language is a direct reflection of our ability to use abstract and extrapolative logic. The humpty-dumpty-ing of language, to me, is indicative of humpty-dumpty-ing of thought.
 
I'm aware of the historical usage of 'tomboy'. I was referring to the 60's-80's usage of it in regards to growing up then, and Emily's Cat questioning whether gender was a separate thing from sex at that time.
Emily’s Cat was questioning your assertion that “women” referred to gender and not sex at that time. Which is a different issue than whether gender and sex were considered different. In the vast majority of cases back then, “women” referred to sex, not gender. The only notable exceptions were some rather fringe academic feminists.
edit: I hope the label has died out nowadays, as females should be able to play with whatever toys they want and wear whatever they want without judgement.
Why should the label die out? It’s not an insult. It’s a useful descriptor. Seems like taking offense to the term is an indication that you aren’t really ok with the behavior.
Same as males, they should be able to play with whatever toys they want and wear whatever they want without judgement.
Nobody here disputes that.
 
Of course they should be able to compete in Parkrun. In the correct category. It's all very well for Lionking, he's a man and a woman self-IDing into his category isn't going to knock him off a winning spot. However, what if he'd lost in his age category to a much younger man who self-IDed as a veteran? Would he be relaxed about that?

If it's only for fun then they shouldn't have any categories at all. They shouldn't publicise winners. Many women do care about their performance in the female category, and it's being completely skewed over by selfIDing men.

Everyone runs together, and the finishing times are published on a website. There is usually some indicator for who is male or female as well as age category.

Here's the categories you can choose from when registering:

IMG_7972.jpeg

Last I heard (and I do parkrun every week and follow dozens of parkrunners, groups, and pages) is that if you mark yourself as "another gender identity" you don't get included in the women's or men's stats.

I also heard that if you are a transwoman, your result gets marked with "assisted" in the same way that winning being pulled along faster by a dog does. That was several years ago, before parkrun stopped having an easily-accessible list of male and female all-time winners anyway.
 
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