Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Rolfe]

Of course they should be able to compete in Parkrun. In the correct category. It's all very well for Lionking, he's a man and a woman self-IDing into his category isn't going to knock him off a winning spot. However, what if he'd lost in his age category to a much younger man who self-IDed as a veteran? Would he be relaxed about that?

If it's only for fun then they shouldn't have any categories at all. They shouldn't publicise winners. Many women do care about their performance in the female category, and it's being completely skewed over by selfIDing men.

 

[Ziggurat]

I’m not sure Parkrun is an important issue at all. I’ve been a Parkrunner and I don’t think anyone gives a toss about who wins. To me it’s always been about individual times. I’ve won in my age bracket and I don’t know who else came second and what gender they reported. It’s something that’s social and should not be treated seriously.

I'm not familiar with Parkrun. Do they separate running by sex, or do they have everyone run together and just separate the listing of run times?

 

[lionking]

Of course they should be able to compete in Parkrun. In the correct category. It's all very well for Lionking, he's a man and a woman self-IDing into his category isn't going to knock him off a winning spot. However, what if he'd lost in his age category to a much younger man who self-IDed as a veteran? Would he be relaxed about that?

If it's only for fun then they shouldn't have any categories at all. They shouldn't publicise winners. Many women do care about their performance in the female category, and it's being completely skewed over by selfIDing men.

Yes I get it. But it isn’t a major target to me.

 

[angrysoba]

I'm not familiar with Parkrun. Do they separate running by sex, or do they have everyone run together and just separate the listing of run times?

Everyone runs together, and the finishing times are published on a website. There is usually some indicator for who is male or female as well as age category.

 

[lionking]

I'm not familiar with Parkrun. Do they separate running by sex, or do they have everyone run together and just separate the listing of run times?

The latter.

 

[angrysoba]

Of course they should be able to compete in Parkrun. In the correct category. It's all very well for Lionking, he's a man and a woman self-IDing into his category isn't going to knock him off a winning spot.
However, what if he'd lost in his age category to a much younger man who self-IDed as a veteran? Would he be relaxed about that?

If it's only for fun then they shouldn't have any categories at all. They shouldn't publicise winners. Many women do care about their performance in the female category, and it's being completely skewed over by selfIDing men.

I think if that happened, not much would come of it. If I said I was 90 and got one of the highest percentile runs in, then... what of it? I honestly don't think anything would happen.

 

[lionking]

On reflection, I only entered Parkruns as a way to get 30 minutes or so exercise in a local and social environment. But if I entered it as a competitive event I would be mightively pissed off if I was beaten by a transgender runner.

 

[angrysoba]

I think

On reflection, I only entered Parkruns as a way to get 30 minutes or so exercise in a local and social environment. But if I entered it as a competitive even
t I would be mightively pissed off if I was beaten by a transgender runner.

Seems odd to me.

What advantage would a transgender runner have over you?

 

[Ziggurat]

Everyone runs together, and the finishing times are published on a website. There is usually some indicator for who is male or female as well as age category.

If everyone runs together, then the running itself isn't a problem (running next to a man is no different from running next to a transwoman), only how things are listed.

I suspect the result of this conflict might be to not list sex/gender at all in the results. Neither side will really be happy with such a solution, but it would give the organizers an out without having to pick a side.

 

[angrysoba]

If everyone runs together, then the running itself isn't a problem (running next to a man is no different from running next to a transwoman), only how things are listed.

I suspect the result of this conflict might be to not list sex/gender at all in the results. Neither side will really be happy with such a solution, but it would give the organizers an out without having to pick a side.

I think they DID do exactly that for some time, and maybe still do. I think that both sex and age were records were removed. There seem to be a number of video reactions to this one YouTube and most of it is negative.

I have only run a few Parkruns in Japan and the name, age and sex of the runners are displayed along with the percentile for their demographic.

 

[Rolfe]

Here is the issue from further down that thread.



There are certainly lots of people who just do it for the exercise and the participation, but they DO publish results by category and it means a lot to many women to win or come close to the top of the female category, or indeed to come in as one of the top hwever-many females. They get royally pissed off when a man comes in ahead of them in this category, and I don't blame them.

It's ridiculous to frame this as

... people trying to demand that transgender runners not be allowed to compete in Parkrun.

Everybody can compete in Parkrun, absolutely anybody. Everyone runs together and if a man is running in a pink tutu nobody cares. The "demand" is merely that he enter himself in the correct sex and age category.

 

[theprestige]

I’m not sure Parkrun is an important issue at all. I’ve been a Parkrunner and I don’t think anyone gives a toss about who wins. To me it’s always been about individual times. I’ve won in my age bracket and I don’t know who else came second and what gender they reported. It’s something that’s social and should not be treated seriously.

College and other competitive sports competitions are a different matter altogether.

All sex segregation is important, because it's all the same issue. Any overriding of sex segregation by fiat self-ID is a threat to all sex segregation.
The anti-science, anti-social lie that is fiat self-ID needs to be culled, root and branch. If the cancer is allowed to lodge anywhere, it will eventually metastasize everywhere. Bring the chemo, bring the radiation, burn it out of parkrun too.

It's one thing to have cheek swabs at international athletic events, and another one to have people trying to demand that transgender runners not be allowed to compete in Parkrun.

Why do you lie like this? Nobody is making the demand you imagine.

The demand people are actually making is that men not be entitled to override sex segregation whenever they want. Hopefully this is a demand you understand and agree with, in parkrun as well as everywhere else.

 

[theprestige]

Also, are we seriously back to "I don't see the problem, it's only women's sports"? Try to be less toxic misogyny, dudes.

 

[p0lka]

I notice that Parkrun calls it's female category "female", not "women", but males for some reason still enter.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1940709039513784781

I went and actually checked the parkrun rules and saw this

After careful consideration and extensive consultation–both in 2019 and in 2023, we decided to continue categorising people based on gender rather than sex. We feel this is aligned with us as a health and wellbeing charity that provides non-competitive socially-focussed physical activity, and allows people to identify in the way they feel most appropriate and comfortable.

from here https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us/articles/360005339137-1-3-Gender-categorisation

Will this finally convince p0lka?

Not really, no. The wishy washiness still exists unfortunately, hence the confusion of the people in Rolfes quote. Also why people don't read rules or instructions does my head in.

 

[p0lka]

Oh for crying out loud. (Read the thread if you can.)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833380251520360810

What is it with these dangerous weirdos being given awards rather than having their hard drives checked?

Do you check this stuff before you post it?
in you link you posted it says that they are a founder of 'awesometistic' which focuses on autistic children.
If you can be bothered to search awesometistic then you find their webpage which has a 'meet the team' and if you click on that then you find this page https://www.awesometistic.co.uk/meet-the-team
and in that you can find the person you linked saying

I can only ever talk about my own autism and needs but if someone takes something away from me that has helped even a little then i am a happy man.

So are gay people perverts now as well Rolfe?

edit: I take that back as from what I can find he says he's not gay. I assumed he was gay because of the flamboyancy, shows I'm still guilty of judging stereotypes dammit.

 

[p0lka]

Yes, acts like a boy, but is a girl. Which is why boys cannot be tomboys, no matter how they act. Only girls can be tomboys. Because tomboys are girls. By definition.

Not even remotely like that.

I was replying to this post

I have doubts about your claim. I'm a mere five years younger than you... and at no point in my childhood did "boy" mean a child who wore trousers, liked toy cars and guns, and played cowboys & indians with the other kids at recess. If it had, I would have been consistently called a "boy" when I was a wee kid. But I wasn't, despite my penchant for math and science and climbing trees. Because the words "boy" and "girl" and "man" and "woman" have been consistently understood for both of our entire lives to refer to sex.

and was pointing out labels that didn't refer to sex.

Also thank you Emily's Cat for telling me how i can use this forum as it used to be, I can quote people again, thank you.

 

[Ziggurat]

I was replying to this post

and was pointing out labels that didn't refer to sex.

"Tomboy" DOES refer to sex, and I'm confused as to why you ever thought otherwise. It doesn't refer only sex, but as I pointed out, only girls can be tomboys. Boys cannot be tomboys. If "tomboy" only referred to something other than sex, then boys could be tomboys. But boys cannot be tomboys, because tomboys are girls. If you hear someone say, "Pat is a tomboy", then that tells you Pat's sex. The label explicitly refers to sex.

 

[Ziggurat]

Not really, no. The wishy washiness still exists unfortunately, hence the confusion of the people in Rolfes quote. Also why people don't read rules or instructions does my head in.

The fact that the wishy washiness still exists is precisely the point. That's precisely what should convince you. Using sex labels rather than gender labels doesn't matter.

I told you pages and pages ago that the rules are what matter, not the label, and NOW you're finally realizing that? But even now you aren't putting two and two together: it's precisely because it's the rules that matter, not the label, that changing the label will not fix anything. There was never any requirement that the rules and the label match. If you change the label but not the rules, then nothing changes. If you change the rules, you don't need to change the label. Do you still not get it?

 

[d4m10n]

If development follows the Mullerian pathway, the individual develops as a female
If development follows the Wollfian pathway, the individual develops as a male.

Please see the excerpt from the wiki in post #9,167 regarding the extent to which CAIS individuals actually go down the Müllerian pathway.

I would argue that people "born without fallopian tubes, a cervix, or a uterus" didn't go far enough down that pathway for a pathway-based binary sorting algorithm to make much sense, especially when they are born with testicular tissue from the other pathway.

I'm not saying you cannot possibly come up with a sorting algorithm to put every individual one box or another; I am saying that just talking about the two pathways won't get you all the way there without adding some more detailed criteria.

I'm also saying—come to think of it—that these probably aren't actually the appropriate criteria to use when sorting people for purposes unrelated to individual health and fertility, which it to say that they won't work for most of the policy questions we've actually discussed in any detail here in this thread,

 

[Ziggurat]

I would argue that people "born without fallopian tubes, a cervix, or a uterus" didn't go far enough down that pathway for a pathway-based binary sorting algorithm to make much sense, especially when they are born with testicular tissue from the other pathway.

It doesn't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ matter. Transpeople don't have DSD's. The question of how to handle people with DSD's has nothing to do with the question of what to do with transpeople. Every attempt to conflate these issues is dishonest.