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Nobody has got ghost, according to Quran.

"Let's look at this thing which I'm defining as not having any testable qualities in a rational manner" is a bad argument; be it ghosts, souls, or god.
 
Navigator said:
These points allow for one to remain in the neutral position whilst examining Ghost Theory
Click to expand...


These "points" show you don't know anything about "bias" or "examining".

Bias can only be avoided by recognizing that it affects us all and establishing processes for looking at data and finding explanations for the data that then can be criticized, replicated, and possibly falsified by others.

You have no data, and nothing to for anyone else to do.
 
Navigator said:
1. There is a non-physical aspect of human experience that is responsible for generating consciousness and personality.
Click to expand...
You fail already at this stage. Why do you expect human consciousness and personality to be “non-physical”. If the brain is damaged, both aspects can be damaged too, and certain experiences can be induced through physical means.
 
Navigator said:
From the neutral position where the bias of Emergent Theory and/or Religious Theory are not affecting the examination of the Ghost Theory, I find the following points pertinent.

1. There is a non-physical aspect of human experience that is responsible for generating consciousness and personality.
2. This non-physical aspect is sometimes referred to as the “Ghost” in the context of Ghost Theory.
Click to expand...


I'd like to see if you can further define what you mean by by "non-physical" by addressing some familiar examples of experienced phenomena that might provide comparison or contrast.

1. A bolt of fabric is printed with a pattern of green and blue dots (small circles). The dots are in a pattern that repeats every 20 inches. We say the dots form a pattern. We describe the pattern as regular.

1a. Is the pattern physical or non-physical?

1b. Is the regularity of the pattern physical or non-physical?

2. A single one of the dots in the bolt of printed fabric is misprinted. It's blue instead of green, and an inch away and slightly smaller than the corresponding dot in the other repeats. We describe that dot as irregular or exceptional.

2a. Is the irregularity or exceptionality of the misprinted dot physical or non-physical?

3. A poem is printed in English in Times New Roman font on a piece of paper. There is a word misspelled in the second verse, due to a typographical error. We describe that as an error. The poem is about the expectation of spring during the dead of winter.

3a. Is the error physical or non-physical?

3b. Is the meaning of the poem physical or non-physical?

4. Words printed on paper relate a story about a boy wizard named Harry who goes to wizard school, where he learns to cast a magic spell called wingardium leviosa. Children around the world read that story and learn and repeat that spell (even though in the real world it doesn't do anything).

4a. Is Harry the boy wizard physical or non-physical?

4b. Is the wingardium leviosa spell physical or non-physical?
 
JoeMorgue said:
"Let's look at this thing which I'm defining as not having any testable qualities in a rational manner" is a bad argument; be it ghosts, souls, or god.
Click to expand...

"Be it goat or ghost, or ghost of goat, or both!" Firesign Theater

Pardon, but it makes about as much sense as a good bit of this thread!
 
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I have found the error. Not that it was hard to find.

Navigator said:
1. There is a non-physical aspect of human experience that is responsible for generating consciousness and personality.
Click to expand...
This is an entirely unjustified assumption, unevidenced and without prior plausibility. Everything else proposed is derives from this invalid axiom.
 
Navigator said:
In the Ghost Theory, the non-physical Ghost is described as responsible for generating the human personality, and interacts with the physical body to do so.
Click to expand...


How??

Until you explain how... all that you have to say further... is... claptrap!!!
 
Navigator said:
In the Ghost Theory WAG, the non-physical Ghost is described imagined as responsible for generating the human personality, and interacts with the physical body to do so.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I just hate seeing the word theory so egregiously misused.

The physical body is a necessary component for the Ghost to gather data from experiences, and together they create the human experience. This is distinct from the imaginary characters and spells in stories, which are purely non-physical and have no basis in the physical world.
Click to expand...
"The physical wand is a necessary component for a Wizard to cast spells, and together they create the wizarding experience".

Nope, still no reason to think your Ghost is any less imaginary than a Wizard.

Point 5 in the list states: "Whether the Ghost is formed through Emergence Theory or not, it is still something non-physical interacting with something physical."
Click to expand...
If consciousness is an emergent property of brain cells then it isn't something non-physical interacting with something physical. Wetness is not something non-physical interacting with water molecules.
 
The Quran emphasizes that on the Day of Judgment, it is not a person's abstract soul or spiritual memory that will bear witness against them, but rather the members of their own body.

"On a Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them for what they used to do." (An-Nur, 24:24)

"And they will say to their skins, 'Why have you testified against us?' They will say, 'We were made to speak by Allah, who has made everything speak.'" (Fussilat, 41:21)

The Location of Memory: If a person's true identity, consciousness, and memory were stored in an immortal soul separate from the body, it would be logical for the testimony to come from that soul. However, the Quran states that the record of memory and deeds is kept within the physical body itself, and that this resurrected body will speak. This directly supports the thesis that the nafs (personality, self, ego) is an inseparable whole with the body.

The Quran describes the criminals who face Hell or the Day of Judgment as reacting not with a lesson learned from their soul's torment, but as if they have awakened from nothingness or sleep to face reality for the first time. Their desire is not for their souls to be purified, but to be physically returned to the world.


"If you could but see when the criminals hang their heads before their Lord, [saying], 'Our Lord, we have seen and heard, so return us [to the world]; we will do righteousness. Indeed, we are [now] certain.'" (As-Sajdah, 32:12)

This is not the statement of a being who has lived a conscious intermediate life after death. Their saying, "We have seen and heard," shows that they are comprehending this reality now—that is, when they are resurrected. Their desire to return and "do righteous deeds" confirms their knowledge that action, and thus the nafs, is only possible in the world with a physical body.

Everything in our universe will perish (other universes will also perish; the only exception is the Universe of the Hereafter, which is a physical place named the Floor of the Lord, and that is the universe that will exist forever):

"Everyone upon it (the earth) will perish (fân). But will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor (bâkî)." (Ar-Rahman, 55:26-27)

Therefore, every nafs in our universe will also taste perishing, that is, death. No one in this universe has an immortal part.

As I said, immortality is only in the abode of eternity, that is, in the Universe of the Hereafter called the Floor of the Lord:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612644.0
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Unlike the traditional Islamic doctrine which is under the influence of sects and hadith fabrications, in the real Islamic doctrine of the Quran people have NO ghosts/ souls/ spirits. People do NOT have a divine component, a soul, a spirit nor a ghost.

Everything created in the universe is material, physical and real, NOT an illusion. (for example the first man Adam was made from clay element and the jinn was made from fire element)

Heaven and Hell are NOT mental delusions. They are “physical” places created in another universe.

Unfortunately, terms such as soul- spirit (an immortal divine component, a ghost that can exist on its own without the body even after death) have succeed to enter Islam due to wrong translations -which are made under the influence of hadith fabrications- and Islamic mysticism (sufism). But in the original text of the Quran (Arabic version), they are NOT available.
In the Quran, people have “nafs”, which is the equivalent of “life energy”, “ego”, “character”. People are born, they die and they will be “physically” recreated in the Hereafter:

Does the human being think that We will not gather his bones? Indeed, We were able to make his fingertips (The Resurrection, 75: 3-4)

As also can be seen in the verses, people do NOT have souls/ spirits, they only have “nefs”, which dies together with the bodily functions. And as again can be understood from the verses “most” of the people will be recreated in the Judgment Day. We use the word “most” because there are some exceptions. The Quran gives the examples of very meritorious people, such as martyrs or prophets and on the other edge some deadly sinners, such as the Pharaoh who committed outrage to his people.

These exceptional people have already started to reap what they have sown. They are either rewarded in Heaven (physically) or punished in Hell (physically).

Examples to the righteous who go to Heaven immediately after their death:

· Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions. Happy with what God has granted them from His favor, and they rejoice for those who have yet to follow them. There is no fear over them nor do they grieve. (The Family of Imran, 3: 169-170)

· A man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying: "O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided. Why should I not serve the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return? Shall I take gods besides Him? If the Gracious intends any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me in the least, nor can they save me. Then I would be clearly astray. I have acknowledged your Lord, so listen to me! It was said, "Enter Paradise." He said "Oh, how I wish my people only knew of what my Lord has forgiven me, and made me of the honored ones."We did not send down upon his people after him soldiers from the sky; for there was no need to send them down. For all it took was one scream, whereupon they were stilled. (36:20-29)

Example to the disbelievers who committed “deadly” sins and tyranny:

· So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution. The fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening, and on the day when the moment is established: "Admit the people of Pharaoh into the most severe of the retribution." (The Believer, 40: 45-46)

And the following verses refer to the common/ordinary people, possibly the majority of the disbelievers:

· The horn will be blown, whereupon they will rise from the graves rushing towards their Lord. They will say, "Woe to us. Who has resurrected us from our resting place? This is what the Gracious had promised. The messengers were truthful!" (Ya sin, 36: 51-52)

In the Quran the word “Spirit” only refers to the “Holy Ghost/Spirit” and to the messages It brought. For example:

We gave Moses the book, and after him, We sent the messengers. Later We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your minds do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill! (2:87)

Such messengers, We have preferred some to others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in ranks, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them acknowledged and some of them did not appreciate. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes. (2:253)

God said, "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said, "This is an obvious magic!" (5:110)

He sends down the angels with the Spirit by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants: "That you shall warn that there is no god but I, so be aware of Me." (16:2)

They ask you concerning the Spirit. Say, "The Spirit is from the command of my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.” (17:85)
It was sent down with the trusted Spirit. (26:193)

Possessor of the highest ranks, the One with the Throne. He sends the Spirit with His command upon whom He wills from His servants, so that they may warn of the day of Summoning. (40:15)

You will not find any people who acknowledge God and the Last day befriending those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees trust into their hearts, and supports them with a Spirit from Him, and He admits them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath, wherein they will abide. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners. (58:22)

The day when the Spirit and the angels stand in line, none will speak unless the Gracious permits him and he speaks what is true. (78:38)

Some dangers of thinking that people have spirits/ souls:

- Having a belief that people have spirits often leads up to the sanctification of the humans. It leads people to associate himself / herself with God.

- It also contributes to building up a strong belief of spiritual evolution. As a result of this false belief, in order to evolve spiritually, people praise suffering and pain. When they encounter a disastrous situation, instead of getting out of it, they welcome it and take it as a reward. However, according to the Quran, the bad things that come to us are either to test us or a result of our sins, our own malignancy.

- Spiritualists regard life as a school where we, as students, learn and mature. These people maintain that suffering / pain is a must for spiritual evolution. Thus, it turns the evil into hidden heroes having a special (key) role in the spiritual evolution process. Those who can read between the lines can easily realize that it glorifies the evil (even Satan). Also spiritualists
tolerate the immoral behaviors of the ones who are not spiritually evolved (!)

- Belief in the spirits opens the door to reincarnation, which means that we will be different creatures (different gender, different personality, different appearance etc.) in our other lives (!) In other words, it means that a person that dies is gone forever, which is actually a very materialistic point of view again if you read between the lines.

- Some spiritualists think that death is something positive as spirit confined to the physical body will be set free and unite with God and become one. This deviant view also praises suicides.

- People, who believe that people have spirits, mostly swap the belief for the Judgment Day with reincarnation and thus, they reject the belief in reward and punishment in the afterlife and eliminate Heaven and Hell, attributing symbolic meanings to both. In addition, they adopt ascetic lifestyles and scorn the beauties, provisions God gives us (in this world and in the other world).

- People who believe in the spirits are more likely to be cheated by the jinns.
Click to expand...

Blasphemy!

The ghost of Mohammed, peace be unto Him, shalt come to you in thy dreams, and punish thy heresy by biting thee, hard, in thy buttocks, and not let go until thou recant thy heresy, and submit to the Will of Allah the Merciful.

Beware, O Apostate, every time thou shut thine eyes. Repent, O Sinner, and recant thy blasphemy, ere Allah the Merciful exhausts His Mercy, and sets his Prophet, peace be unto Him, on thee.


Eta: Ah, necro thread. ...Hath thou mended thine sinful ways in these years, O thou follower of Shaitan, or are thine buttocks pockmarked with the Holy Teeth of the Prophet, peace be unto Him?
 
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Emre_1974tr said:
The Quran emphasizes that on the Day of Judgment, it is not a person's abstract soul or spiritual memory that will bear witness against them, but rather the members of their own body.
Click to expand...
Obviously a doctrine blatantly stolen from the ancient Egyptians. Their Book of the Dead—teaching the same things—was written 2800 years before the Quran.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
The Quran emphasizes that on the Day of Judgment, it is not a person's abstract soul or spiritual memory that will bear witness against them, but rather the members of their own body.

"On a Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them for what they used to do." (An-Nur, 24:24)

"And they will say to their skins, 'Why have you testified against us?' They will say, 'We were made to speak by Allah, who has made everything speak.'" (Fussilat, 41:21)

The Location of Memory: If a person's true identity, consciousness, and memory were stored in an immortal soul separate from the body, it would be logical for the testimony to come from that soul. However, the Quran states that the record of memory and deeds is kept within the physical body itself, and that this resurrected body will speak. This directly supports the thesis that the nafs (personality, self, ego) is an inseparable whole with the body.

The Quran describes the criminals who face Hell or the Day of Judgment as reacting not with a lesson learned from their soul's torment, but as if they have awakened from nothingness or sleep to face reality for the first time. Their desire is not for their souls to be purified, but to be physically returned to the world.


"If you could but see when the criminals hang their heads before their Lord, [saying], 'Our Lord, we have seen and heard, so return us [to the world]; we will do righteousness. Indeed, we are [now] certain.'" (As-Sajdah, 32:12)

This is not the statement of a being who has lived a conscious intermediate life after death. Their saying, "We have seen and heard," shows that they are comprehending this reality now—that is, when they are resurrected. Their desire to return and "do righteous deeds" confirms their knowledge that action, and thus the nafs, is only possible in the world with a physical body.

Everything in our universe will perish (other universes will also perish; the only exception is the Universe of the Hereafter, which is a physical place named the Floor of the Lord, and that is the universe that will exist forever):

"Everyone upon it (the earth) will perish (fân). But will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor (bâkî)." (Ar-Rahman, 55:26-27)

Therefore, every nafs in our universe will also taste perishing, that is, death. No one in this universe has an immortal part.

As I said, immortality is only in the abode of eternity, that is, in the Universe of the Hereafter called the Floor of the Lord:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612644.0
Click to expand...
I don't believe you.
 
There is no promise of 72 virgins in the Quran. Hadiths or the words of other people are nothing more than gossip and are outside of the religion. The sole source of the religion is the Quran:

Real Islam is only in Quran

Real Islam is only in Quran
www.answering-christianity.com
 
Emre_1974tr said:
There is no promise of 72 virgins in the Quran. Hadiths or the words of other people are nothing more than gossip and are outside of the religion. The sole source of the religion is the Quran:

Real Islam is only in Quran

Real Islam is only in Quran
www.answering-christianity.com
Click to expand...
No ! the 72 wives is from an obscure hadith. But the Quran says that in heaven people will be waited on by wide eyed youths, and sit by rivers of wine where the fruit hangs low. This is a stunningly stupid kind of heaven that would only appeal to dusty old desert Arabs. Which is exactly who it was intended for. Arabs who would fight and die in Muhammad's grubby little wars because they were promised heaven.
 
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