Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

[The Great Zaganza]

My guy out here trying to get a uranium centrifuge like ordering a chemistry set from Toys'R'Us LMAO

Both China and Russia would be happy to provide, and entirely in their rights to do so

 

[Hercules56]

I do believe that shoe is on the other foot.

Zionism has a recorded history its supporters have no hope in hell of dealing with successfully. Today's USA is openly breaking the law, attacking allies, embracing enemies, threatening territorial conquests and annexations, while participating in both (a) aggressive war and (b) live genocide. None of which can be supported in line with the law, signed treaties, or moral reasoning. What's it to be, then, "Bully, bully, I'm fat and woolly"?

All is to be ignored in the name of... what? Feelings? I'm afraid you'll need to actually produce a valid argument. I can look up references for you if you need them.

Point of educational order to help those in clear need:

• Zionism is an atheist political philosophy -- greatly predating WWII and the Holocaust -- based on the then-consensus at the turn of the 20th century that colonialism was ennobling for savages and that conquest was the right of the enlightened master races.
• Israel is a nation-state under the same laws and obligations as all others, not a holy land answering to some higher calling.
• Neither Zionism nor Israel is synonymous with Judaism.
• Israelis are not synonymous with Semites, either.
• Complaints of antisemitism when either is criticized are doubly misplaced.

No charge, a freebie. Now, on your way.

LOL!!!



Zionism clearly has its roots in Judaism, which has always dreamed of a return to Zion.

History of Zionism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More than 50% of Israeli Jews have ancestry directly and recently from the Middle East. By the weak but popular definition, these people are "Semites".

 

[Ziggurat]

Both China and Russia would be happy to provide

Why on earth would they be happy to provide? Are you actually under the impression that either country wants Iran to go nuclear? That this is actually a goal of theirs? It's not.

, and entirely in their rights to do so

As signatories to the NPT, neither Russia nor China can just give out centrifuges to anyone and everyone. It's not that simple.

 

[Hercules56]

Why on earth would they be happy to provide? Are you actually under the impression that either country wants Iran to go nuclear? That this is actually a goal of theirs? It's not.

As signatories to the NPT, neither Russia nor China can just give out centrifuges to anyone and everyone. It's not that simple.

LOL!!!

What makes you think they would conspire against Iran's "natural right" to have nuclear power and fuel?

 

[Ziggurat]

We know exactly at what stage the uraniaum enrichment program was. From this we know that it will take Iran less than a year to rebuild their centrifuges and start further enrichment.

Where are you getting this from?

I find it utterly bizarre that you and so many think that just because the program got derailed again, this time it's for good.

Oh, I never said anything about "for good".

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Why on earth would they be happy to provide? Are you actually under the impression that either country wants Iran to go nuclear? That this is actually a goal of theirs? It's not.

For the same reason the US wanted Israel to go nuclear and made it happen. This is a Cold War, previously between Russia, now China and the US. Iran is very much key to China's geopolitical plans, which is probably what helped convince Trump to hope and work for Regime Change.
A Nuclear Iran would be the counterweight to nuclear Israel in the region, severely limiting what America's ally in the region can do.

As signatories to the NPT, neither Russia nor China can just give out centrifuges to anyone and everyone. It's not that simple.

yes it is - peaceful nuclear development is encouraged under the NPT, and peaceful enrichment needs centrifuges, too.
the IAEA didn't complain that Iran had centrifuges.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

In many threads I will post a supported thesis and then follow it up in that and later posts. What I am generally not observing are valid counterpoints, just ad-homs in the main.

I commend Hercules56, on the other hand, for disagreeing when often occasioned to do so, done on the basis of his own theses. May we agree to disagree often.

But I am not seeing anyone else show up, not with real arguments. The first few pages of my own thread on the issues around creation of the state of Israel is a worrisome testament to the very sorry state of 'discourse' today. In that one, many jumped out of the woodwork for the first time ever, at least in conversation with me, bombed away, then ran off, never to successfully see their thesis through, either.

***

So, Trump's fake news peace deal still on the table, or has it been replaced by yet another childish and surly post from, ahem, the 'leader' of the 'United States'?

 

[Ziggurat]

What makes you think they would conspire against Iran's "natural right" to have nuclear power and fuel?

"Conspire"? There's no conspiracy involved in just not selling them centrifuges. Which, in case you hadn't noticed, they already weren't doing. Why would they sell Iran centrifuges now, when they didn't before? "Natural right" has nothing to do with it. Russia and China don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about that. What's in it for them?

 

[Hercules56]

China supplied Iran with materials to make centrifuges and rockets. No reason why they wouldn't do it again.

Chinese Defense Firms and Universities Linked to a Centrifuge Supplier for the Iranian Military | Kharon

A sanctioned Chinese supplier of centrifuges for Iran’s ballistic missile program has ties to Chinese military end-users, defense companies, and universities, including those engaged in partnerships with academic institutions in the U.S., Europe, Asia and Africa.

www.kharon.com

 

[Hlafordlaes]

LOL!!!



Zionism clearly has its roots in Judaism, which has always dreamed of a return to Zion.

Actually, it was conceived as primarily a nationalist movement, largely by atheists, and its thesis was that every "race" should have its homeland, directly modeled on the thought of contemporary Europe at the time. Many Jews, then and now, decry this and refuse to allow Zionism to be equated to Judaism.

History of Zionism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More than 50% of Israeli Jews have ancestry directly and recently from the Middle East. By the weak but popular definition, these people are "Semites".

Not quite sure that stands up to scrutiny, though post-1950 immigration did eventually include more and more diaspora Jews from other regions, not just Europeans, who by accounts are indeed more directly related.

Palestinians, OTOH, do hail from the region, many arguably descended from Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam: Semites.

 

[Hercules56]

Actually, it was conceived as primarily a nationalist movement, largely by atheists, and its thesis was that every "race" should have its homeland, directly modeled on the thought of contemporary Europe at the time. Many Jews, then and now, decry this and refuse to allow Zionism to be equated to Judaism...

The dream of Returning to Zion is as old as Judaism itself. Zionism simply created the modern social and diplomatic machinery to actually make it happen. There is a reason why Argentina and Uganda didn't work, as no Jews would accept such an idea.

Jews have ALWAYS believed and continue to believe today that Palestine is the Holy Land, given to the Jews by God, and all Jews have a holy and natural right to reside there.

And yes, more than 50% of Israeli Jews have non-European ancestry, mostly from North Africa and the Middle East. Semites, by your logic.

 

[Ziggurat]

A Nuclear Iran would be the counterweight to nuclear Israel in the region, severely limiting what America's ally in the region can do.

True. Except Iran also has its own interests which diverge significantly from both China's and Russia's. Both China and Russia have issues with Islamic terrorism. And Iran is a radical Islamic state. They're both happy to back Iran to an extent, but I doubt either of them thinks Iran is actually an ally in any deep sense. Their long term goals are actually incompatible. Giving them nuclear weapons could easily backfire, and they both know that.

Plus, both China and Russia have incentives to keep the NPT paradigm in place. As long as the nuclear weapons club is small, their membership gives them certain advantages. The bigger the club gets, the smaller those advantages become. Russia doesn't want to give Ukraine an excuse to go nuclear, and China doesn't want to give Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan an excuse either.

yes it is - peaceful nuclear development is encouraged under the NPT, and peaceful enrichment needs centrifuges, too.

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I said it wasn't simple. It's not.

the IAEA didn't complain that Iran had centrifuges.

Domestically developed nuclear technology is not handled the same way by the IAEA as transferred technology.

 

[Hercules56]

True. Except Iran also has its own interests which diverge significantly from both China's and Russia's. Both China and Russia have issues with Islamic terrorism. And Iran is a radical Islamic state. They're both happy to back Iran to an extent, but I doubt either of them thinks Iran is actually an ally in any deep sense. Their long term goals are actually incompatible. Giving them nuclear weapons could easily backfire, and they both know that.

Plus, both China and Russia have incentives to keep the NPT paradigm in place. As long as the nuclear weapons club is small, their membership gives them certain advantages. The bigger the club gets, the smaller those advantages become. Russia doesn't want to give Ukraine an excuse to go nuclear, and China doesn't want to give Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan an excuse either...

And yet China already allowed export of materials to Iran to help them with their nuclear and missile programs.

 

[Ziggurat]

And yet China already allowed export of materials to Iran to help them with their nuclear and missile programs.

I'm sure individual Chinese companies are happy to make a buck by any means whatsoever. Most of them probably don't even consider the geopolitical ramifications. But if you're talking actual centrifuges (and not just dual use technology), that ◊◊◊◊ is MUCH more tightly controlled. That's not getting sold unless China makes a deliberate decision to make Iran go nuclear. Would they make such a decision? It's conceivable. But it sure as ◊◊◊◊ isn't a guarantee. They didn't do that before, despite being willing to sell them all sorts of other ◊◊◊◊. Why would that suddenly change? You still haven't said.

 

[Hercules56]

I'm sure individual Chinese companies are happy to make a buck by any means whatsoever. Most of them probably don't even consider the geopolitical ramifications. But if you're talking actual centrifuges (and not just dual use technology), that ◊◊◊◊ is MUCH more tightly controlled. That's not getting sold unless China makes a deliberate decision to make Iran go nuclear. Would they make such a decision? It's conceivable. But it sure as ◊◊◊◊ isn't a guarantee. They didn't do that before, despite being willing to sell them all sorts of other ◊◊◊◊. Why would that suddenly change? You still haven't said.

Nuclear cooperation began in the 1980s when China helped build a research reactor and supplied four other research reactors. Continued aid came in the form of helping Iran construct a uranium hexafluoride enrichment plant near Isfahan and the resumption of construction on a nuclear power plant at Bushehr that was left uncompleted by the French and Germans. In 1991, nuclear exports to Iran were discovered by the International Atomic Energy Association, which contained three types of uranium. A 1990 covert nuclear agreement was also discovered. This discovery was followed by an unprecedented nuclear cooperation agreement in 1992. The agreement was signed despite U.S. protests to have China limit its nuclear cooperation with Iran

China–Iran relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ziggurat]

Nuclear cooperation began in the 1980s

They didn't give Iran centrifuges before. And what's the very next sentence?

"Direct nuclear cooperation has ended, but there is speculation over whether there remains indirect nuclear cooperation."

Giving Iran centrifuges would be VERY direct nuclear cooperation. Which China isn't doing right now. So again I ask, why would that suddenly change? You still haven't said.

 

[Hercules56]

They didn't give Iran centrifuges before. And what's the very next sentence?

"Direct nuclear cooperation has ended, but there is speculation over whether there remains indirect nuclear cooperation."

Giving Iran centrifuges would be VERY direct nuclear cooperation. Which China isn't doing right now. So again I ask, why would that suddenly change? You still haven't said.

China helped Iran build centrifuges to enrich uranium. And gave them uranium to enrich.

No reason why they wont again, they like Iran.

 

[Ziggurat]

China helped Iran build centrifuges to enrich uranium. And gave them uranium to enrich.

No reason why they wont again, they like Iran.

You moved the goalpost. See if you can figure out how.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Domestically developed nuclear technology is not handled the same way by the IAEA as transferred technology.

maybe you are right.
maybe China can't sell them centrifuges - just the material to build them, plus the engineers and workers to assemble them.

 

[Hercules56]

You moved the goalpost. See if you can figure out how.

No, I corrected myself. You got a problem with that?