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Ed Applying luma curve to photos and footage

Notice plane. Notice falling man. Notice luma halo was not removed.
There is no such thing as a “luma halo”. What you see is the figment of your random fiddling.

But you cant argue against physical reality.
You don’t seem to have an accurate grasp on what physical reality is happening here. You’ve ejected from your attention anyone who could help you.

Computers can see it too.
No. The computer is creating it under ill-informed direction.
 
@nt1: I know this is going to sound harsh, but you're a young guy fooling around with a consumer editing program that even you acknowledge you are no expert with, and you're doing it as a hobby.

You do know actual experts have been scrutinizing this ◊◊◊◊ for decades, right? Do you seriously think you've outsmarted the planet? There's a reason why these claims are not being parroted by professionals worldwide. The good Messieurs JayUtah and Oystien have shown you precisely why.
 
Notice plane. Notice falling man. Notice luma halo was not removed.

Why? Sloppy or on purpose.

Here is a photograph.

I then used a samsung galaxy stock emoji creator.

I inserted the outline of the body back into the photo next to the original.

Notice the difference in the edge of the shoulder.

You can guard against it. You can mock me.

But you cant argue against physical reality.

Not my reality. Not your reality. Our reality. Universal reality. Not even to living creatures with eyeballs. Computers can see it too..
And what about the other ten photos in that series of the guy falling?
 
This guy is not engaging in debate. He just repeats what he has said before, and does not ever consider arguments against it.
I will debate or discuss with you.
 

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I will debate or discuss with you.
How about going back through all of those posts where your graphics argument has been torn to shreds? You have not commented on any of them, just presented more of the same.

And all those post that have pointed out how unlikely your entire argument is. I am not going to rehash what has already been said.
 
Yes. The post above you. That is a physical photo in my possesion. I added a composite of the same body. I duplicated it. It shows the smooth edge and unnatural blending of light.

Would you like me to do more of them with different tools. I would be happy to.
 
No, I would not like you to do more until you deal with the fact that your process has been explained to you in considerable detail and can be expected to produce exactly the kind of results you see when applied to upscaled low resolution pictures.

It's possible you didn't see the explanation or the example showing the same effect because you had the poster on ignore. Did you see it? The rest of us saw it and so we know that your results don't show those videos were doctored. Showing us more won't prove anything.
 
Yes. The post above you. That is a physical photo in my possesion. I added a composite of the same body. I duplicated it. It shows the smooth edge and unnatural blending of light.
It's not clear from your pictures what the picture was, what you composited or how you composited it, or what the rational was for your simply applying ham-fisted band-pass filters to it. Of course your AI is confused. You've handed it garbage and asked it to explain how that garbage could arise from a physical process. Your AI is giving you the answer—there is evidence of manipulation because you manipulated it.

Would you like me to do more of them with different tools. I would be happy to.
More of the same.

It doesn't matter which tools you use if you use them unskillfully. You are applying grossly outsized adjustments that have no basis in any kind of science or physical property. You appear to be manipulating the controls randomly until you see something that doesn't fit your expectations, and then presumptively attributing it to tampering. As long as you keep wildly creating artifacts, you will continue to observe them.
 
An ELI5 question for those in the know:

nt1 asserts that his halo pics are evidence of masking. To my inexperienced eye, the colors and shading and everything in the pics are violently distorted, creating weird end effects, I'm assuming to do with the poor pixel resolution in going from video tape to digitizing?

Is nt1's method the usual way of identifying a masking line in similar pics? I would have expected the line to be visible under magnification of it's normal display, or maybe in a simple negative image?
 
nt1 asserts that his halo pics are evidence of masking. To my inexperienced eye, the colors and shading and everything in the pics are violently distorted, creating weird end effects, I'm assuming to do with the poor pixel resolution in going from video tape to digitizing?
There are numerous elements of the likely workflow that would have attenuated the resolution and color fidelity.

Is nt1's method the usual way of identifying a masking line in similar pics? I would have expected the line to be visible under magnification of it's normal display, or maybe in a simple negative image?
It depends on what you mean by "masking lines." Are you talking about a digital image? Do you mean the boundary between a foreground element and a background element where the foreground has been pasted from another source?
 
It depends on what you mean by "masking lines." Are you talking about a digital image? Do you mean the boundary between a foreground element and a background element where the foreground has been pasted from another source?
Yes, identifying a boundary. I'm trying to work out if nt1's approach has any validity at all.

Say you were presented with the Falling Man photo which nt1 claims appears to be 'shopped' in. What method would you use to determine if the boundary was natural or cut and overlayed? Basically, I'm asking how a professional would identify an overlay line, and would it be a variant of nt1's method?
 
Say you were presented with the Falling Man photo which nt1 claims appears to be 'shopped' in. What method would you use to determine if the boundary was natural or cut and overlayed? Basically, I'm asking how a professional would identify an overlay line, and would it be a variant of nt1's method?
Well, that's a red herring. We would use statistical techniques over the whole image. These use some of the same math that the JPEG compression processes uses—namely the discrete cosine transform. But we don't use it to compress. We use it to look at the variations in luminance and chrominance channel groups and identify outliers.

But yes, there are things you can look for visually in the image at the boundaries. No, you don't generally need egregious manipulations of the channels to look for them. Nor is that the only visual inspection you can make. But to ask specifically about feature boundaries, which is @nt1's bugbear, we can delve into that. This is when I wish I had a whiteboard.

In an image editing program such as Adobe Photoshop, pasting occurs into a separate image layer. Barring storage in the program's native format, these layers don't persist in the final saved image. They're composited together and "flattened" into a single layer that has the combined image channel data (usually RGB). The factors that affect how one layer combines pixel-by-pixel with another is what you have to look at.

In most cases, the image data in the pasted element in a layer is represented as a set of channels, one each for red, green, and blue data. The color of each pixel is the combination of RGB data from that same position in each channel. But you also have an alpha channel—what Photoshop calls a Layer Mask. This is a channel of coefficients that tell you, for each pixel, how much of the color channel data from the paste layer to use, and how much of the eventual background to use. This can also implement such things as transparency, but we'll stick with edge smoothing for now. For the interior of the pasted content, α = 1. For the parts of the paste layer that aren't occupied by the intended paste, α = 0. For the pixels on the boundary, 0 < α < 1.

The trick when cutting or copying the foreground element is to generate an accurate alpha channel at the boundary. Manual control of it is always available, in the form of "smoothness" in the selection. As I've been told by many Photoshop artists, the key skill in using it is learning how to select. It's not just a matter of knowing which pixels belong to the source feature and which to the background. Your ultimate selection will either be too small (i.e., omit some feature information) or too large (i.e., include some background information). The conceptual, infinitely thin line that separates feature from background will never exactly demarcate feature pixels from background pixels because there are pixels that are legitimately both. Therefore if your selection region is too large and includes background information from the source, you want the alpha layer to attenuate that as much as possible.

So if you have your "falling man" foreground element shot against, say, a black background in a studio, when you select it you'll probably pull in some of the black pixels at the edge. But the alpha channel at the edge will have a small coefficient, meaning that compositing will pull in more of the destination background at that pixel rather than the erroneously included black background. If the alpha channel is carelessly created, the coefficient will be too large and some of the original background information will be visibly combined with the destination background. In the black-background case, you might notice a slight darkening of a pixel or two around the foregound element in the composite image. You can amplify that if desired with a modest adjustment to the luminosity—nothing like the wholesale excursions in @nt1's examples. But most of it will be visible to the naked eye under simple magnification of the suspect region.

More likely the foreground element will be taken from a natural background source. In that case the background pixels that come along for the ride will be something other than black, and modest adjustments in chrominance-related channels (hue information as opposed to brightness information) are what you would apply.

The converse case is when either a deficient alpha channel or a careless selection omits feature information. I.e., the selection is too small. This will appear as the feature boundary seeming slightly transparent, allowing destination boundary information to come through. Again, some modest manipulation of luminance or chrominance channels may make this easier to spot, depending on what the foreground and background look like. But not the wholesale blowouts in @nt1's examples. And under no conditions I can imagine will these alpha-blending errors manifest as thick white or dark lines around the feature. And in my experience, they just don't occur very often.

If I can find some time, I'll try to find or create some visual examples. There's only so much I can handwave as text before a picture is worth a thousand words.
 
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@JayUtah, thanks a bunch for that. The flattening effect (mimicking background pixels to erase the boundary) was where I thought digital manipulation excelled. So would that mean a digital cleanup of the old Falling Man pic shouldn't reintroduce a halo line (if it were an actual overlayed image)? Shouldn't it read the edge pixels as just as naturally occurring as the rest of the background?

Eta: what I'm driving at is that nt1 seems to treat these images as if they were literally cut and pasted like a scrapbook, and my very lay understanding is that that particular line would be undetectable, or very nearly so.
 
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@nt1: I know this is going to sound harsh, but you're a young guy fooling around with a consumer editing program that even you acknowledge you are no expert with, and you're doing it as a hobby.

You do know actual experts have been scrutinizing this ◊◊◊◊ for decades, right? Do you seriously think you've outsmarted the planet? There's a reason why these claims are not being parroted by professionals worldwide. The good Messieurs JayUtah and Oystien have shown you precisely why.
I think you did a decent job of phrasing that. I will work on evidence or documentation to address your statement directly.
 
@JayUtah, thanks a bunch for that. The flattening effect (mimicking background pixels to erase the boundary) was where I thought digital manipulation excelled. So would that mean a digital cleanup of the old Falling Man pic shouldn't reintroduce a halo line (if it were an actual overlayed image)? Shouldn't it read the edge pixels as just as naturally occurring as the rest of the background?

Eta: what I'm driving at is that nt1 seems to treat these images as if they were literally cut and pasted like a scrapbook, and my very lay understanding is that that particular line would be undetectable, or very nearly so.

What exactly do you mean hear? Cancelations from some Nat Geo tour group that would have flown on one of the flights? Cancellation by some Nat Geo film crew? The second question is what is the source? I see you have screenshot there but its a bit blurry and I can't tell exactly what it is.

I'll second Thermals repeating the same claim that folks already don't find compelling is not going to be more compelling. Maybe provide more and different evidence that the claim is true. IDK, some third-party photo expert that agrees with you?
Source. Public FBI files.
As you will find. There is an investigation into why there was a high rate of cancellation and no-show percentage on the hijack flights. Lets examine it. Lets examine who cancelled or no showed.
 

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@JayUtah, thanks a bunch for that. The flattening effect (mimicking background pixels to erase the boundary) was where I thought digital manipulation excelled.
Yes, it does. I'm having a heckuva time producing an example of an alpha channel botched to the point where the blending error is invisible in an unadjusted image, but shows up after manipulating luminosity or color data. With a badly-accomplished composition, all you have to do to see it is zoom in on the unadjusted image. I'll keep trying as long as I have time.

So would that mean a digital cleanup of the old Falling Man pic shouldn't reintroduce a halo line (if it were an actual overlayed image)? Shouldn't it read the edge pixels as just as naturally occurring as the rest of the background?
Correct.

Eta: what I'm driving at is that nt1 seems to treat these images as if they were literally cut and pasted like a scrapbook, and my very lay understanding is that that particular line would be undetectable, or very nearly so.
Who knows what he's thinking? Razor-blading an image and literally pasting it over a background omits any blending entirely, so that's just another set of problems.

At the outset he posted a video showing that in PNG-filed images (which can include an alpha channel, unlike JPEG) the alpha channel can be used to hide image information by making the alpha zero there. It shows how disabling or removing the alpha channel will then reveal that information. That has nothing to do with what's happening here, but I think he included it to try to prime people to believe that any image could be manipulated in some way to reveal information that is being hidden by an alpha channel.

When he can't state his assumptions or expectations and won't answer questions, you need a crystal ball to figure out what his argument really is.
 

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