Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

Last time I was in an Applebee's, there was a bar in the middle of the space. I think it's a standard fixture of the chain.

Maybe it's a joke about children getting their salad tossed by the day drinkers at Applebee's?

Thread taking an abruptly dark turn.

 

[Ziggurat]

Up until very recently, there were no laws at all regarding sex specific access.

True. But the government would still support the ejection of males from female-only spaces, even without explicit legislation.

We cannot go back to that anymore. To support the ejection of males from female-only spaces, we now need explicit legislation. Otherwise law enforcement won't do it. That's why your idea of "status quo" will no longer work.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't want children in bars. Clearly I hate children.

I don't want adults playing in my granddaughter's netball competition. I clearly hate adults!

 

[theprestige]

Thread taking an abruptly dark turn.

I'm finding poetical new ways to express my disgust at your objectively misogynistic policy proposals and cynically weaksauce excuses for them.

 

[Thermal]

I'm finding poetical new ways to express my disgust at your objectively misogynistic policy proposals and cynically weaksauce excuses for them.

Ah.

 

[theprestige]

I don't want adults playing in my granddaughter's netball competition. I clearly hate adults!

If only Captain Hook had identified as a child. Peter Pan would have been morally obligated to admit him into ranks of the Lost Boys. Never mind Tinkerbell saying it's a bad idea. She's an ageist bigot. Feed her to the crocodile.

 

[Rolfe]

Ya about that step 4... is the staff member right outside the door? Cuz as I've said, by the time you actually find somebody and bring them down, it's likely all over and he's on his way.

Then step 7. Not a fair position to put them in, unless they are combat trained, but you seem.happy to risk their lives. I would also expect that things got violent around step 2, which you seemed to not anticipate? Like, I get UKers think everyone is docile, and maybe they are over there, but over here the fight comes faster.

OK, I think we're done here. I rest my case.

Thermal accepts that men who demand entry to women's single-sex spaces are violent, indeed lethally violent, and can be expected to unleash that lethal violence against anyone who asks them to leave.

That's it, really.

 

[Rolfe]

With all the guys openly threatening him. How would you like that? Your fear is imaginary. The transwomans is real.

Wow, now you think that all other men are violent sociopaths too. (We hear from trans-identifying men who do go where they're supposed to go that the most they've ever encountered is a somewhat surprised look.)

 

[theprestige]

Thermal: Complains about people veering into hypothetical fantasies.

Also Thermal: Swerves into hypothetical fantasies harder than a tween writing Twilight fanfic on Wattpad.

 

[smartcooky]

Just noticed this, and I've asked you about it before. How often is this a problem?

Even once is too many times. It should not be happening at all

Are there multiple men at once?

Even one is too many

Are they harrassing anybody?

Why does this matter? Their presence in a safe space reserved for women IS the problem. As Rolfe has REPEATEDLY stated, she doesn't even want the nice men in there, at all. I understand this and I understand why, even if you can't.

Has it noticably increased recently?

Why does this matter? It didn't used to happen, and now it does.

Does it tend to be in certain areas (theater, clubs), or all over?

Why does this matter?

Not looking for actual numbers, just your experience, because what you describe is not consistent with what I'm seeing.

This is your whole problem. You are coming from a position of exclusively your own experience, within your own bubble, and you summarily dismiss any and all of the experiences of other people. You seem incapable of understanding or empathizing with women who are very, VERY uncomfortable with ANY man coming into a private safe space, when that private safe space is clearly reserved (and labelled) for women.

Its clear that you don't actually care.

Its clear that you think women should just put up and shut up.

After what happened to them, both of my girls now self-exclude from public restrooms, only using them in an absolute emergency. They have also self-excluded from using the local public swimming pool because they got no support from the management in excluding the man who keeps using the womens changing rooms. They are not the only women in this town who have done so.

 

[Rolfe]

Very good Rolfe. You seemed to have discovered that you can't make violent criminals compliant, even by putting a sign on an unlocked door.

If they like being above ground, than yes, I normally don't recommend picking fights you cannot beat your way out of.

I do not.

With all the guys openly threatening him. How would you like that? Your fear is imaginary. The transwomans is real.

So trans-identifying men may be assumed to be violent criminals then. OK, you said it, not me. Women should not challenge them unless they're prepared to be murdered. These are the people you believe we should tolerate in our spaces. Except a little while ago they were just poor souls who want to pee, and feel more comfortable peeing in the women's space. Now, we discover, that if they're thwarted in this objective, they're liable to kill the woman who objects to their presence.

None of this is making any sense. The "transwoman's" fear of being in the men's room (where the worst that's likely to happen to him is a funny look) is real, but he'll probably kill me if I ask him to leave the women's room. And yet my fear is imaginary.

Get your story straight.

 

[acbytesla]

You're inferring that Rolfe wouldn't be able to tell this person is female just because you couldn't. Either we are allowed some inferences, or we aren't.

I'm not inferring it. I'm saying it outright. There is no clue or even multiple clues that could or should create certainty outside of them dropping trou.

That's possible. No system is going to be error free. The occasional misidentification of a female as being male is likely to be less of a problem then the inability to expel actual males from female-only spaces.

Says who? I don't think it's really a problem the way it is.

Indeed, who cares if women are uncomfortable with males in their bathrooms, changing rooms, prison cells, etc. They're just womenfolk. They can put up with it, and all their concerns are just silly.

No, it's not that. I know of many women that it doesn't bother.

I can think of no better encapsulation of the TRA position than your words.

OK.

 

[Thermal]

Wow, now you think that all other men are violent sociopaths too.

So I've been told by posters ITT.

(We hear from trans-identifying men who do go where they're supposed to go that the most they've ever encountered is a somewhat surprised look.)

Thats a lie. I've posted studies, research and surveys that indicate transwomen get exponentially more abuse in restrooms than any other demographic. You actually argued with me earlier about what constituted assault, regarding a survey that showed 1 out of 3 transwomen reported restroom assaults in the last year (and you were wrong; the study separated verbal assault from physical).

 

[Rolfe]

No system is going to be error free. The occasional misidentification of a female as being male is likely to be less of a problem then the inability to expel actual males from female-only spaces.

It's only a day or two since I related my friend Bridget's revelation that she is regularly challenged in women's toilets. At least once a month, she said, sometimes more often. (I admit to being very surprised by this.) She said, "I just give them my best shark-like smile." She makes eye contact with the woman who has made the mistake, the woman realises her mistake, somewhat embarrassed apologies ensue, and everyone has a bit of a laugh about it. Nobody gets attacked, nobody gets assaulted and nobody dies. Bridget didn't even sound particularly bothered about it.

 

[Rolfe]

Thats a lie. I've posted studies, research and surveys that indicate transwomen get exponentially more abuse in restrooms than any other demographic. You actually argued with me earlier about what constituted assault, regarding a survey that showed 1 out of 3 transwomen reported restroom assaults in the last year (and you were wrong; the study separated verbal assault from physical).

Men where I live don't do that. Maybe you need to turn your attention to civilising American men, instead of bullying American women into compliance.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not inferring it. I'm saying it outright. There is no clue or even multiple clues that could or should create certainty outside of them dropping trou.

None that you picked up on. That doesn't mean nobody else could pick up on any clues. You are indeed still inferring.

Says who? I don't think it's really a problem the way it is.

Says a whole lot of women who do not like obvious males invading their spaces. They think it's a problem. You might be willing to dismiss their concerns, I'm not.

No, it's not that. I know of many women that it doesn't bother.

And multiple women in this thread are telling you that it bothers them. The women it doesn't bother cannot consent on behalf of the women it does bother.

 

[Thermal]

So trans-identifying men may be assumed to be violent criminals then. OK, you said it, not me.

I'm going to request that you begin posting in good faith. You know damn right well we were talking about potential criminals exploiting the opportunity (which the data and common sense shows doesn't happen).

Women should not challenge them unless they're prepared to be murdered. These are the people you believe we should tolerate in our spaces. Except a little while ago they were just poor souls who want to pee, and feel more comfortable peeing in the women's space. Now, we discover, that if they're thwarted in this objective, they're liable to kill the woman who objects to their presence.

Again, please consider posting in good faith for a change. Try it! It's fun!

None of this is making any sense. The "transwoman's" fear of being in the men's room (where the worst that's likely to happen to him is a funny look) is real, but he'll probably kill me if I ask him to leave the women's room. And yet my fear is imaginary.

Get your story straight.

Gey your strawmen and childish hyperbole straight, and it will all sort itself out as if by magic.

 

[Thermal]

Men where I live don't do that. Maybe you need to turn your attention to civilising American men, instead of bullying American women into compliance.

Glad to hear how docile your men are. I won't reference Bryson out loud while I snicker.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm not inferring it. I'm saying it outright. There is no clue or even multiple clues that could or should create certainty outside of them dropping trou.

It would seem, in that case, that your neighbour has been taking large amounts of synthetic testosterone, and yet has still managed to become pregnant. I hope the baby is all right.

Interestingly enough, the recent Supreme Court ruling did rule about this, and what it said was that if a woman has masculinised herself by taking male hormones, sufficiently so as to be indistinguishable from a man, she may lawfully be excluded from women's facilities due to the potential for disruption. She should be provided with an alternative place to go.

Says who? I don't think it's really a problem the way it is.

No, it's not that. I know of many women that it doesn't bother.

So you're not bothered then. So you deny anyone else the ability to be bothered. We see you.

 

[Matthew Best]

I think Bryson would very quickly get treated to societal norming. That's why he wouldn't do so in the first place. He's smarter than you, and knows it's a losing proposition for him.

I guess
this is what counts as an olive branch to Rolfe in Thermal's world.