Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

I can tell men from women to a pretty high degree of accuracy. So can most people, although it has been shown that women are slightly better at this than men. (I can't necessarily tell males from females, I'm not that great when it's horses.)

Because it's not difficult to tell men from women with a low error rate, then maintaining women's spaces male-free is relatively straightforward.

1. You see a man. You know already that this is a man willing and indeed happy to transgress women's boundaries.
2. You say, you should not be here, please leave. (It's quite hard to avoid using words like "excuse me" and "please", even though they're not appropriate).
3(a). He leaves. All is well.
3(b). He refuses to leave.
4 (in the event of b). You contact the nearest member of staff at the venue, and explain the situation.
5. The staff member enters and required him to leave.
6(a). He leaves. All is tolerably well.
6(b). He refuses to leave.
7 (in the event of b). It is now up to the staff member to deal with this situation.

This is how it worked. It was fine. Now Thermal tells us we mustn't do any of this, but must allow the transgressing man to remain there. Not acceptable.

Ya about that step 4... is the staff member right outside the door? Cuz as I've said, by the time you actually find somebody and bring them down, it's likely all over and he's on his way.

Then step 7. Not a fair position to put them in, unless they are combat trained, but you seem.happy to risk their lives. I would also expect that things got violent around step 2, which you seemed to not anticipate? Like, I get UKers think everyone is docile, and maybe they are over there, but over here the fight comes faster.

 

[acbytesla]

Would she? Even after she speaks? And how is it that you learned this neighbor was actually a woman?

Because she was pregnant and now has 6 month old baby

Perhaps. Seems a pretty rare case to me. Which bathroom does this neighbor prefer to use?

I don't buy it's rare at all. As for my neighbor, I don't know. I've never gone anywhere with her..

But it's a "mistake" that you have no reason to care about, and Rolfe wouldn't know about. So why is it a problem?

It's a problem because Rolfe made it one. She would have insulted my neighbor. The definition of being a Karen.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's a problem because Rolfe made it one. She would have insulted my neighbor.

From your description, I think your neighbor is trans, and has at some point been on hormone therapy. This does not preclude pregnancy if done after puberty. Trans-identifying females often pass easier than trans-identifying males. Under these circumstances, I suspect your neighbor would choose to use the men's bathroom, and would have no problem doing so. I do not think Rolfe would object.

 

[Ziggurat]

Then step 7. Not a fair position to put them in, unless they are combat trained, but you seem.happy to risk their lives.

That is an absurd conclusion. Dealing with them does not mean that the staff member is the one who has to physically remove them. All the staff member need to is call the police (who have had combat training) and have the police remove the person. Which they do all the time, despite your claim that they don't.

I would also expect that things got violent around step 2

Wait, what? Wow. If you really think that the typical male in a women's bathroom will get violent if merely asked to leave, then you actually think the problem is already far worse than either Rolfe or I think it is. If you are correct, if that's how bad things actually are, then immediate police action is required, it isn't optional.

 

[Pixel42]

I don't understand that. I'm saying that as far as I know, transwomen don't have a problem peeing "in front of" other transwomen, despite them both being bio males.

But they do have a problem peeing in the men's room, which is why they insist on imposing their company on women.

Not true. They've been in the men's room when I was there, as nearly as I can tell, far more often than my wide and kids have encountered them combined. In fairness, Pacific Avenue in Atlantic City NJ is a red light district, and unusually colorful characters abound.

If they're happy to use the men's room why are they insisting on the right to use the women's room?

It is, very admittedly, a conflict or rights and comfort.

Quite.

I don't think they are saying men are too icky to be around. I think they are saying it feels more normal to be around other women in a restroom, rather than being the only one in a dress with four construction workers staring at you (or worse).

And what feels more normal to the women on whom they are imposing their company is evidently of no interest or concern to them.

Has it occurred to you that they'd rather be welcomed into the ladies room because at a glance, they fit in better, and they find most women less hateful than the men they run across in the men's room? Serious question.

Once again: women have been quietly allowing transwomen they think they can trust to behave themselves into women's space for many many years, safe in the knowledge that if they misjudge someone they need only raise the alarm and everyone within earshot will come to their aid because the law is on their side. It's only since TRAs insisted we must put up with strangers we have no way of knowing we can trust being billeted on us without our consent, knowing that even if they misbehave the law will be on their side, that this has become a problem.

 

[acbytesla]

From your description, I think your neighbor is trans, and has at some point been on hormone therapy. This does not preclude pregnancy if done after puberty. Trans-identifying females often pass easier than trans-identifying males. Under these circumstances, I suspect your neighbor would choose to use the men's bathroom, and would have no problem doing so. I do not think Rolfe would object.

You're inferring it all. What if you're wong? Seems silly to me. And who cares what a Karen thinks?

 

[Thermal]

Uh, no. Bryson being in the women's bathroom is a problem. This isn't equivalent to not being able to tell the difference between a transwoman who actually passes and a real woman.

Even if stepping in will get you kicked out? If the trans-identified male calls upon the police and the police backs him up, will you and your buddies keep trying?

If the situation goes on long enough for police to arrive, they can deal with it because that ◊◊◊◊ done escalated.

 

[theprestige]

The one I've been stating is the one I am leaning toward. No new tranny bashing laws, and no penalties for women who object to a man in the women's room (no hate crime charges), and let us sort out what we find acceptable situationally.

What is a "tranny bashing" law in your opinion?

The way I see it, the only way to get what you say you want, "no penalties for women who object to a man in the women's room (no hate crime charges), and let us sort out what we find acceptable situationally" is to put it in writing, as a law. that women are entitled to eject a man from their space if they don't find him situationally acceptable.

That brings us almost all the way back to the status quo ante, with the understanding that trans rights activists have made it impossible for women to have this entitlement purely through social pressure anymore. It basically makes explicit what was previously implicit.

Is that the kind of "tranny bashing law" you're trying to avoid? Because I don't see how a law clarifying a policy that you don't believe is "tranny bashing" can be that kind of law.

The converse would be a law that prohibits women from ejecting men they find situationally unacceptable. You don't want that. I don't want that. Nobody wants that, except for some trans rights activists.

Again we find ourselves in almost complete agreement, but I suspect that once again you'll find some vague excuse to flip out, vilify everyone who pretty much agrees with you, and refuse to offer any other alternative than the one we all thought you agreed with a moment before.

 

[Ziggurat]

You're inferring it all.

You're inferring that Rolfe wouldn't be able to tell this person is female just because you couldn't. Either we are allowed some inferences, or we aren't.

What if you're wong?

That's possible. No system is going to be error free. The occasional misidentification of a female as being male is likely to be less of a problem then the inability to expel actual males from female-only spaces.

Seems silly to me. And who cares what a Karen thinks?

Indeed, who cares if women are uncomfortable with males in their bathrooms, changing rooms, prison cells, etc. They're just womenfolk. They can put up with it, and all their concerns are just silly.

I can think of no better encapsulation of the TRA position than your words.

 

[Thermal]

You have suggested no mechanism whatsoever to prevent hateful men accessing the ladies' room.

Very good Rolfe. You seemed to have discovered that you can't make violent criminals compliant, even by putting a sign on an unlocked door.

You have merely said that women should not challenge them if they do.

If they like being above ground, than yes, I normally don't recommend picking fights you cannot beat your way out of.

The problem is that the trans-identifying man is a man, irrespective of what he feels like, and is going to make a substantial proportion of women uncomfortable by his mere presence. You insist that women's discomfort doesn't matter and must be ignored, because the comfort of the man is more important. We see you.

I do not.

He doesn't have to stand in the middle of a line of urinals if he doesn't want to. He can go into a cubicle, or he can use a separate single-occupancy facility.

With all the guys openly threatening him. How would you like that? Your fear is imaginary. The transwomans is real.

 

[Thermal]

That is an absurd conclusion. Dealing with them does not mean that the staff member is the one who has to physically remove them. All the staff member need to is call the police (who have had combat training) and have the police remove the person. Which they do all the time, despite your claim that they don't.

I'm impressed with the police response time you theorize. In my world, you might see a cop in a half hour for this kind of thing.

Wait, what? Wow. If you really think that the typical male in a women's bathroom will get violent if merely asked to leave, then you actually think the problem is already far worse than either Rolfe or I think it is. If you are correct, if that's how bad things actually are, then immediate police action is required, it isn't optional.

She has been repeatedly talking about Bryson, a convicted violent criminal actually in lockup now. Who were you talking about?

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm impressed with the police response time you theorize.

Nobody said the response time needs to be instant.

She has been repeatedly talking about Bryson, a convicted violent criminal actually in lockup now. Who were you talking about?

Rolfe has mentioned Bryson in other posts, yes. But in the post you quoted, she makes zero mention of Bryson. If you thought it was about Bryson, you made a fundamental mistake. Read it again, more carefully.

 

[theprestige]

*glances at the bar in the middle of Appleby's*

???

Children are allowed to be in the restaurant, but not sit in the bar area. It's an almost universal rule for such combined spaces.

And my point is that someone can be prohibited from a venue, without that prohibition stemming from hatred of that person.

For example: Men can be prohibited from women's restrooms, without that prohibition stemming from a hatred of men.

I laugh at the idea that Rolfe, Emily and others posting on this thread insisting they can tell the biological sex of a person without checking their pants.

I have recently developed a friendship with a (girl?) named James. James identifies as a woman. Looks like a woman to me, but dresses like a man. Flat chested. Doesn't wear makeup that I can see. Has long flowing brown hair. Voice sounds to me like a woman. I can't tell if she's a tomboy or a guy who has transitioned to be a girl. James is attracted to women. Is she a butch lesbian? Or a straight man that identifies as a woman?

I genuinely don't know. And I absolutely don't believe that ANYONE could tell without asking, (which I think is impolite) or getting her to drop trou.

That part isn't really relevant anyway. Historically, women have been comfortable giving some grace to transwomen who are trying to pass and aren't making any trouble. Even if the passing attempt isn't entirely successful.

That's the way it used to be. It served women and society quite well. It even served sincere transwomen quite well (for some values of sincere).

The only catch is that this depended on women being entitled to gatekeep their spaces, not only with impunity, but with confidence of the full support of the police and the state.

Modern trans rights activism seeks to remove that dependency, open the doors to any and every man who wants to enter, and to use the power of the state to penalize women who try to gatekeep their spaces. We have seen this in action.

 

[Thermal]

But they do have a problem peeing in the men's room, which is why they insist on imposing their company on women.

If they're happy to use the men's room why are they insisting on the right to use the women's room?

Some do, some don't. I believe we have been over this. Once or twice.

Quite.

Agreement. Outstanding!

And what feels more normal to the women on whom they are imposing their company is evidently of no interest or concern to them.

Yes, that's intolerance.

Once again: women have been quietly allowing transwomen they think they can trust to behave themselves into women's space for many many years, safe in the knowledge that if they misjudge someone they need only raise the alarm and everyone within earshot will come to their aid because the law is on their side. It's only since TRAs insisted we must put up with strangers we have no way of knowing we can trust being billeted on us without our consent, knowing that even if they misbehave the law will be on their side, that this has become a problem.

Once again: a public restroom is not a private club where you can pick and choose who is let in. It's public. Strangers will use it.

If you misjudge a transwoman, you sound the alarm, you say? Why could you not do the same with a stranger? Unless misjudging doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong?

 

[Ziggurat]

If the situation goes on long enough for police to arrive, they can deal with it because that ◊◊◊◊ done escalated.

Did it escalate because you tried to use force first? Because if so, the police are arresting you if that male had a right to be there. Which is why it's important that the law not provide males with any legal right to be there. But that's transphobic and hateful.

And if you didn't use force, then the situation may not have escalated at all, they could simply refuse to leave and you wouldn't have accomplished anything. And the police wouldn't do anything when they arrive if the male had a right to be there.

 

[theprestige]

I'm impressed with the police response time you theorize. In my world, you might see a cop in a half hour for this kind of thing.

Police show up to trespassing calls, public disturbance calls, drunk and disorderly calls, adults creeping on children calls, and sundry other calls, in plenty of time to accost the perpetrators, all day, every day, all across the country.

Also, "police response is slow, so we should just decriminalze the behavior, and criminalize reporting the behavior" is such a perverse dodge as to be obscene. Take a moment to think about the monstrous lengths you're going to, to avoid the simplest, most humane, and most utilitarian solution. The solution that has served women, dysphorics, and society at large, for generations.

 

[Thermal]

???

Children are allowed to be in the restaurant, but not sit in the bar area. It's an almost universal rule for such combined spaces.

And my point is that someone can be prohibited from a venue, without that prohibition stemming from hatred of that person.

For example: Men can be prohibited from women's restrooms, without that prohibition stemming from a hatred of men.

That part isn't really relevant anyway. Historically, women have been comfortable giving some grace to transwomen who are trying to pass and aren't making any trouble. Even if the passing attempt isn't entirely successful.

That's the way it used to be. It served women and society quite well. It even served sincere transwomen quite well (for some values of sincere).

Ok, I'm with you... this is exactly what I've been repeating...

The only catch is that this depended on women being entitled to gatekeep their spaces, not only with impunity, but with confidence of the full support of the police and the state.

...and you lost me. Up until very recently, there were no laws at all regarding sex specific access. We still don't have them.in the vast majority of US states.

Modern trans rights activism seeks to remove that dependency, open the doors to any and every man who wants to enter, and to use the power of the state to penalize women who try to gatekeep their spaces. We have seen this in action.

Which is why I'm not on their side. That's the extreme position. I find both of the extremes unreasonable.

 

[Ziggurat]

???

I think it's a joke about salad bars. Which children can use, but for sanitary reasons should still probably not be in.

 

[theprestige]

I think it's a joke about salad bars. Which children can use, but for sanitary reasons should still probably not be in.

Last time I was in an Applebee's, there was a bar in the middle of the space. I think it's a standard fixture of the chain.

Maybe it's a joke about children getting their salad tossed by the day drinkers at Applebee's?

 

[Thermal]

Did it escalate because you tried to use force first?

Ok we are way off into imaginary world building scenarios that are far removed from the principles we were actually making some headway with.

Can we revert to either abstraction, or real? Even talking about Bryson is a ride on the Imagination Train. He's in prison, and we don't know what he will be running with when he gets out. He was a cishet rapist when he commited his crimes, and the prison believes him to be opportunistically 'transitioned'. There's no saying what he will be rocking when released.