Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

Someone asked for a "jaunt back into the real world of data and credible research" so naturally I turned back to the DSM as a starting point.

Naturally. Because the DSM is not a primary source of data or research, and deals with mental disorders, which we were not discussing. Big thumbs up.

If a man says that they really wanted to be a ladyboy

...which Frank did not...

(whether for erotic purposes or otherwise) then I'm going to assume they fell under the proverbial umbrella, at least for so long as that desire was still operative.

I don't think you will find many that would agree with that, outside of this thread, anyway. People play at all kinds of ◊◊◊◊ in private. Being trans, especially as it relates to pubic policy, is solely the public display, for our purposes.

 

[d4m10n]

DSM is not a primary source of data or research, and deals with mental disorders, which we were not discussing.

What "data and credible research" did you have in mind, if not the sort collected by the kind of experts who defer to the DSM?

 

[Thermal]

What "data and credible research" did you have in mind, if not the sort collected by the kind of experts who defer to the DSM?

Whatever you please, if it's loosely related. But if we are looking for data and research for non-mental disorder topics, I'm still feeling pretty confident that the DSM would not be the place to start, even with the fresh shift over to the previously undisclosed "experts who defer to the DSM", which was not what you said earlier. You seem to be trying to go somewhere with this, so why don't you lead and we'll see what you're up to?

 

[smartcooky]

For those who doubt that AGP is a real thing, or doubt its relevance to transgender identified men, you need to read this. Its by
Helen Joyce, the director of advocacy at Sex Matters, who played a role in the legal arguments in the case taken to the UK Supreme Court by "For Women Scotland."

Its a 17 minute read, and is well worth every minute for those on the fence on this issue, explaining how and why AGP is a big part of transgenderism. Some of the content is graphic so NSFW. It also describes some of the vile attacks on people just for doing research and speaking their mind (and we've seen similar from members here) and shows how the pro-trans lobby tried to bury information they didn't want to the public to know.

I don't expect any of the hard-core wilfully blind pro-trans mob to take any notice - they will find it too hard to be confronted with information that contradicts their cherished, preferred worldview...

The Truth About Autogynephilia

The Truth about Autogynephilia

Sexual tastes you do not share are inevitably hard to comprehend. But autogynephilia is especially so, since it is rare and even more rarely spoken of.

quillette.com

Blanchard was writing in specialist journals for an audience of a few hundred sexologists. But his typology of transsexualism was not destined to moulder in academic archives. In the 1990s and 2000s it found two popular chroniclers. And what happened next was an early warning of the rise of gender-identity ideology, within which “transgender” is a political identity understood as entirely separate from sexuality, and the very mention of autogynephilia is taboo.​

Bailey knew his book would be criticised by activists who disapproved of Blanchard’s typology. But the level of vitriol shocked him—as it did Blanchard, who felt “survivor’s guilt” at seeing Bailey targeted, and horror at the diatribes that started to be published about Blanchard himself online.​

​

Bailey’s university received complaints alleging that he had broken rules governing research on human subjects, slept with one of those subjects and taken payment to write referral letters for people seeking sex-reassignment surgery—sackable offences, if true. An allegation was made to the state regulator that he was practising psychology without a licence. Rumours were circulated that he had abandoned his family, and that he had a drinking problem. His book had been nominated for a “Lammy,” an award for excellence in celebrating or exploring LGBT themes. After protests, the nomination was withdrawn.​

​

Bailey’s family was also targeted. Andrea James, a transwoman working in consumer advocacy in Los Angeles, posted pictures of his children online, with captions saying “there are two types of children in the Bailey household”: those “who have been sodomised by their father [and those] who have not,” and asking whether his young daughter was “a cock-starved exhibitionist, or a paraphiliac who just gets off on the idea of it.”​

“The situation went from disconcerting to disturbing to terrifying,” says Bailey. “I knew that some people didn’t like the ideas I wrote about; I did not know how deranged some people would get or how coordinated they would be. And then, from terrifying, it became humiliating. I was national news, with all kinds of accusations, from lying to my research subjects to having sex with them.”​

​

This is the type of vile scumbaggery that TRA's and their hangers-on happily support, attacking the children of their target.

 

[varwoche]

I'm popping in to see if the fun(?) game called Community Rorschach is still underway. That's the game where we find random pictures on the internet that are indicative of not a damn thing, and post them here to get a reaction.

 

[Thermal]

For those who doubt that AGP is a real thing, or doubt its relevance to transgender identified men,

A slur employed in the first sentence. Off to a flying start.

I don't expect any of the hard-core wilfully blind pro-trans mob to take any notice - they will find it too hard to be confronted with information that contradicts their cherished, preferred worldview...

More slurring. But oh, it's going to contain information? Might be interesting, then, as all we have been given so far is assertion. Perhaps the long awaited evidence that autogynephilia is what it's proponents claim it to be?

The Truth About Autogynephilia ...

The article is published in Quillette. Media bias rates them 'low credibility', pushing far right ideology. Great. But let's not give up!

Quillette - Bias and Credibility

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no

mediabiasfactcheck.com

The article, surprisingly, contains nothing that hasn't been covered already, and no substantial information about AGP at all. It's a piece designed to garner sympathy and support for it's advocates, as the excerpt indicates. Nothing actually about the purported condition and it's scientific soundness beyond the vaguest of brief summaries.

For a more factual review of autogynephilia, a reader's time might be better spent on Blanchard's own Wikipedia page on the subject, where the peer-reviewed shortcomings in methodology and conclusions are discussed, with citations.

Blanchard's transsexualism typology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TL;DR: Blanchard and Bailey's postulates have not met with any significant support in their relevant fields, due to shoddy science. Their work, when peer reviewed, was found to be unsound. A skeptic might take note of that.

 

[Thermal]

Something that didn't seem to occur to Blanchard when concocting his AGP theory was that maybe he should kinda sorta consider if cishet women were also aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman? I mean, that would be kind of significant, no? Blanchard asserts flatly that women don't, but surprise surprise, provides no factual support at all for that. Dr Charles Moser decided to find out. Turns out 93% of cishet women are also sexually aroused at the thought of themselves as women when posed with similar questions that were posed to Blanchard's transwomen group, and 28% on multiple instances of multiple criteria. Similar to the rates of the transwoman subjects (considering the understandably small study group sizes).

From Moser's peer reviewed work:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918360903005212?src=recsys

 

[Rolfe]

We aren't. But there's no TRA sophistry you won't swallow whole.

 

[Ziggurat]

Thermal, you seem very hung up on the least important part of this entire issue. That seems to me like an excuse to not answer the question of how to keep predatory males out of female-only intimate spaces. In fact, I'm having a hard time concluding that you even want to.

 

[smartcooky]

We aren't. But there's no TRA sophistry you won't swallow whole.

Of course.

When your only tactic is to attack the source, and declare that observable, objective, scientific reality is not real, you are always going uncritically believe whatever the people you support tell you to believe.

The pro-trans support lobby are like flat earthers - they unquestioningly accept the Holy Dogma of "The Narrative", the whole narrative, and nothing but the narrative.

 

[smartcooky]

Thermal, you seem very hung up on the least important part of this entire issue. That seems to me like an excuse to not answer the question of how to keep predatory males out of female-only intimate spaces. In fact, I'm having a hard time concluding that you even want to.

Well if those who dismiss as unimportant, the fact that researchers and their families have been besmirched, insulted, threatened and attacked for the mere "crime" of obtaining and publishing results the people they support don't like, why on earth would they care about protecting women from predators.

 

[theprestige]

Well if those who dismiss as unimportant, the fact that researchers and their families have been besmirched, insulted, threatened and attacked for the mere "crime" of obtaining and publishing results the people they support don't like, why on earth would they care about protecting women from predators.

If I understand Thermal's position correctly, it's not that we shouldn't want to keep predators out of women's restrooms.

It's that we should want to let transwomen into women's restrooms. As a sort of consolation prize or something.

He just doesn't know how to keep the predators out without keeping all men out.

Me, I question the premise.

 

[Thermal]

Thermal, you seem very hung up on the least important part of this entire issue.

Negative. I don't care about AGP at all, especially after I realized it was a joke. But y'all keep desperately bringing it up, clinging to the appearance of a scientifically sound grounding. When the proponents have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that even its inventor says he gots no evidence (in addition to the peer reviewed criticisms), I'm more than happy to be not "hung up on it".

That seems to me like an excuse to not answer the question of how to keep predatory males out of female-only intimate spaces. In fact, I'm having a hard time concluding that you even want to.

Addressed repeatedly. The data shows that there is not a "slight" increase of risk; there is dead zero.

Why would this be so? Also addressed repeatedly. A violent criminal is not deterred by the sign on the unlocked door to "let him in" before raping. A petty voyeur already jumps the door in a wig, and if found doing anything inappropriate, faces the same criminal penalties whether he was "allowed in" or not. If he is as easy to spot as a bio male as women here claim, everyone has their eye on him anyway, making it basically impossible to get away with voyeurism.

The available data says your fears are unfounded, which surprised me too, if I'm being honest (I assumed earlier ITT that they were valid). Do we really have to go through the same arguments over and over again? You guys with your changing the subject then fringe resetting every couple pages is getting really dull.

 

[Thermal]

We aren't. But there's no TRA sophistry you won't swallow whole.

"We aren't ". We aren't what? There was no "are you" question before your post.

 

[Ziggurat]

Addressed repeatedly. The data shows that there is not a "slight" increase of risk; there is dead zero.

Risk of what? Of statistics that show up in police reports? Perhaps, but even there, I don't have faith in your cherry picked statistics (and yes, statistics can be cherry picked too). But it doesn't even matter, because as has been repeatedly told to you, that isn't the only problem. Just because something wasn't reported to the police doesn't mean it wasn't a problem.

I'm afraid all you're doing here is proving that you don't actually care about the demonstrated problem of predatory males invading female spaces. You might care about actual crimes, but not the invasion itself. You are indifferent to that.

 

[Ziggurat]

If I understand Thermal's position correctly, it's not that we shouldn't want to keep predators out of women's restrooms.

It's that we should want to let transwomen into women's restrooms. As a sort of consolation prize or something.

He just doesn't know how to keep the predators out without keeping all men out.

No, it's not that he doesn't know how to keep them out. It's that he doesn't care about keeping them out. He's fine with them being there, so long as they don't commit reportable crimes. That's the only point at which he will draw a line.

 

[Thermal]

No, it's not that he doesn't know how to keep them out. It's that he doesn't care about keeping them out. He's fine with them being there, so long as they don't commit reportable crimes. That's the only point at which he will draw a line.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Ziggurat]

Rinse and repeat.

Prove me wrong. Tell me how you think we should keep predatory males out of female-only spaces. Hell, tell me that we should keep predatory males out of female-only spaces.

 

[Thermal]

Prove me wrong. Tell me how you think we should keep predatory males out of female-only spaces. Hell, tell me that we should keep predatory males out of female-only spaces.

Of course we should, and continue to do so just as we have for generations.

You think we should have something stronger? You'll need to start by installing commercial grade deadbolts on all ladies room doors, and implanting chips in natal females for access (can't have just a mechanical key fall into the wrong hands, ya know).

Anything less and you're just playing silly games with yourself, with your illusions of security theater. Bad guys walk past signs. There has been nothing stopping them since the unlocked restroom was invented.

 

[Ziggurat]

Of course we should, and continue to do so just as we have for generations.

But we aren't. And you seem to be getting upset at the people who don't like that we aren't doing that anymore, rather than the people who stopped us from doing that.

Bad guys walk past signs. There has been nothing stopping them since the unlocked restroom was invented.

In the past, when women complained about the presence of men in their spaces, those men were ejected. Now, the women who complain are ejected. For you to call that difference "security theater" is exactly what I mean when I say that you don't care about the presence of predatory men in women's spaces. You keep proving me right.