Rolfe
Adult human female
Linking to a paper by Bailey? How very dare you! Cue another round of guffawing and braying about oscillating saws and dog-and-pony shows, and absolutely no engagement with the research.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
- Start date
Linking to a paper by Bailey? How very dare you! Cue another round of guffawing and braying about oscillating saws and dog-and-pony shows, and absolutely no engagement with the research.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
I knew exactly what I was doing when I did that, and pretty much what the reaction will be.
Is that Pavlov's Dog?
Of course. When you can't attack the facts, the science, or the research and its conclusions... just attack the source.
After all, Erwin Schrödinger was a very nasty individual and very likely a paedophile. Do we dismiss his work on calculating how the wave function changes dynamically in time, or his work on quantum entanglement, just because he was a vile person? Of course we don't
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Rolfe
Adult human female
I'm no fan of Ray Blanchard. He was instrumental in giving AGP men permission to use women's facilities without any consideration for the effect on the women these facilities were created for. Challenged about this, he said that his responsibility was to his patients, and he had no duty of care to the women whose privacy he gave away. Suck it up, sister. (He literally did train these men how to pretend to be women and once they satisfied him that they were good enough at it, gave them written permission to use women's single-sex facilities. Arguably, he bears a lot of responsibility for the current mess.)
Nevertheless he's a world expert on this. Probably the foremost expert of his time - as Bailey acknowledges. He was at the forefront of "treating" AGP by facilitating transition, whereas previous clinicians had attempted to screen out AGP men and only progressed HSTS men to transition. (Previous practice seems to have recognised that letting AGP men transgress women's boundaries was probably not a good idea, but that wasn't something that worried Blanchard.)
He has estimated that about 75% or thereabouts of the trans-identifying men in his caseload were AGP, with the rest HSTS. He has talked and written at length about this. Many of the AGP patients, he said, were in denial. There was a lot of lying going on, both to other people and to themselves, but as their psychologist he had never come across a heterosexual trans-identifying man who was not an autogynaephile.
He acknowledges that there are other rare causes of trans identification described in the literature, but said that he personally hadn't encountered such a case. (I've watched video testimonies from detransitioning men who seemed to be in that category, including one who went on to request assisted dying - he was Dutch - because of the devastating outcome of his sex reassignment surgery, but they do seem to be one-off cases.) The cookie-cutter stories from trans widows certainly back up this view. The progression from secretly accessing the wife's (or daughter's) lingerie to spending thousands on clothes, make-up and beauty products while sitting around the house reading Cosmopolitan and refusing to do any housework in case he chips his nail varnish, and insisting on going out in public dressed like a high-class hooker, are repeated time and time again in only slightly different words.
Blanchard has been retired for some time now, and as every academic will, he acknowledges that things may have changed since he was in practice. He comments on the huge explosion in trans identification in recent years and says that he can't say whether this new population breaks down in the same way as the one he studied; there may well be other factors in play. Certainly, I don't imagine that prison onset gender dysphoria was much of a thing back then. But really, looking at the trans-identifying men who bring themselves to public notice nowadays, including the mediocre male athletes winning big in women's events and the aggressive men bullying women who try to speak up for their rights, I'm not seeing anything but AGP going on.
In the past, most men with AGP managed to keep the lid on it. Public opprobrium was a powerful incentive to keep the ladies' lingerie behind closed doors. But now that the opprobrium has turned to "stunning and brave", and anyone who doesn't celebrate the man's transition - including his wife - is reviled as a transphobe, is it any wonder that more and more of them are deciding to give it a go?
Nevertheless he's a world expert on this. Probably the foremost expert of his time - as Bailey acknowledges. He was at the forefront of "treating" AGP by facilitating transition, whereas previous clinicians had attempted to screen out AGP men and only progressed HSTS men to transition. (Previous practice seems to have recognised that letting AGP men transgress women's boundaries was probably not a good idea, but that wasn't something that worried Blanchard.)
He has estimated that about 75% or thereabouts of the trans-identifying men in his caseload were AGP, with the rest HSTS. He has talked and written at length about this. Many of the AGP patients, he said, were in denial. There was a lot of lying going on, both to other people and to themselves, but as their psychologist he had never come across a heterosexual trans-identifying man who was not an autogynaephile.
He acknowledges that there are other rare causes of trans identification described in the literature, but said that he personally hadn't encountered such a case. (I've watched video testimonies from detransitioning men who seemed to be in that category, including one who went on to request assisted dying - he was Dutch - because of the devastating outcome of his sex reassignment surgery, but they do seem to be one-off cases.) The cookie-cutter stories from trans widows certainly back up this view. The progression from secretly accessing the wife's (or daughter's) lingerie to spending thousands on clothes, make-up and beauty products while sitting around the house reading Cosmopolitan and refusing to do any housework in case he chips his nail varnish, and insisting on going out in public dressed like a high-class hooker, are repeated time and time again in only slightly different words.
Blanchard has been retired for some time now, and as every academic will, he acknowledges that things may have changed since he was in practice. He comments on the huge explosion in trans identification in recent years and says that he can't say whether this new population breaks down in the same way as the one he studied; there may well be other factors in play. Certainly, I don't imagine that prison onset gender dysphoria was much of a thing back then. But really, looking at the trans-identifying men who bring themselves to public notice nowadays, including the mediocre male athletes winning big in women's events and the aggressive men bullying women who try to speak up for their rights, I'm not seeing anything but AGP going on.
In the past, most men with AGP managed to keep the lid on it. Public opprobrium was a powerful incentive to keep the ladies' lingerie behind closed doors. But now that the opprobrium has turned to "stunning and brave", and anyone who doesn't celebrate the man's transition - including his wife - is reviled as a transphobe, is it any wonder that more and more of them are deciding to give it a go?
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Rolfe
Adult human female
Interesting tale of the children's bookshop with an unusual line in fairy-stories.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Its "The Big Lie" isn't it? If they make the lies big enough and repeat it often enough, especially to vulnerable and impressionable children, they are going to believe it.
Thermal
August Member
Oh, you found that evidence I've been asking for? Outstanding. Care to present it, or is it sooper seecret?
Blanchard made up the term AGP. His work and methodologies have been widely criticized as poor. Bailey rode in on his coattails with The Man Who Would Be Queen. Lawrence cheerleads from the sidelines.Their work is not widely accepted. The community has only accepted AGP as sexual arousal from thinking of ones self as a woman, which is pretty much nothing. It is briefly referred to as a sometime specifier in some forms of transvestic disorder (because duh, it follows pretty naturally). It is otherwise not found to be sound, except by anti-trans groups.
While advocating their AGP stuff, Bailey and Blanchard were members of SPLC recognized hate groups, whose members included literally, one of the authors of The Bell Curve. You couldn't present worse support if you tried. This is all you got?
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I might yet be surprised to learn this, assuming that you provide some evidence beyond simply making the claim itself.
Thermal
August Member
Not oscillating saws. They would make sense, operating as a souped up Hitachi Magic Wand. It was a reciprocating saw, which is a fairly violent tool. At the very least, get your hero's perverted demolition-tools-with-dildos-mounted-on straight.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Agreed, of course.
Which evidence-based study showed that the condition of wanting to be the opposite sex is among those which cost too much?
From where I'm sitting the new trans ban was rooted in bigotry rather than evidence. The authors simply assume "cohesion, honesty, humility, uniformity, and integrity" will be negatively impacted because, well, just because. Those dirty perverts are obviously lacking in such virtues, which we all know from Sunday School.
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I don't think the television show made any claims like that at all.
The controversy that I read about was that they dared cross the AGP/trans streams at all.
Thermal
August Member
That's already been thoroughly done by academics.
No, that's just the cherry on top. Some additional comedy. Although their membership in the eugenics group is not really that funny. Right up you guys alley, though, yeah?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Are you seriously suggesting that we (skeptics) outsource our understanding of these issues to an activist group?
If you want to claim Bailey and Blanchard are hateful, take up the evidential burden and show where they are being hateful.
Thermal
August Member
The tweety that prompted this discussion said so quite plainly (yesterday's post by Rolfe, #7,432).
They didn't, full stop. There's no argument here. Frank was not said to be trans, not ever. That connection is only in your head.
He was, as he said, whacked out on drugs, doing all the crazy ◊◊◊◊ the writers could come up with, then he got SOBER and dropped it.
Thermal
August Member
As skeptics, y'all certainly don't seem to understand that these guys' work is not accepted as the gospel you treat it as by the multiple relevant communities.
No, it's just funny. I mean, I'm trying to think of worse sources to cite with a straight face. Drawing a blank here.
I have no need to demonstrate their lack of credibility on this subject. They've done a smashing job of that on their own.
ETA: I mean Jesus Christ, dude... of all the people on the planet, you guys pick MC ◊◊◊◊ Saw and his buddy on their way back from their eugenics club meeting? Come on, you have a sense of humor.
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
FTFY
Translation: You got nothing.
At least I have posted links to actual research. All you have done is given us a lot of bluster and hot air that you probably sourced from interviewing your own keyboard.
Got anything to back up your, thus far, unevidenced claims?
Thermal
August Member
Yeah, the entirety of multiple academic and professional communities are "ideologically captured". Just not the tranny bashers. Got it. It's like you don't hear yourself.
Why do you lie? I already posted the DSM-5 and the APA library. The APA does not even acknowledge the term. DSM mentions it on two pages (having to define it on both) as the thought of one's self as a woman that produces sexual arousal, which is pretty much nothing. Because of it's obvious similarities, it can be a specifier for a form of transvestic disorder. We can post the multiple professional criticisms of their work, but the lack of acceptance by their peers suffices.
That's it. There's nothing more.
BTW, it's you guys that made the claim that this is even a thing. The burden is, and has remained on YOU, to support it. I have been requesting it for weeks, and have only been given the claimant's own assertion that they have no significant data, and they are relying on their "hunches" (their choice of words).
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
He openly fantasized about being a sexy young woman. What part of "being trans" is missing?
Rolfe's claim that AGP is "at the core of the trans cult" is much stronger than my claim that The White Lotus was clearly invoking trans issues when they depicted a man's erotic fantasy of being a woman.
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Thermal
August Member
"Declaring yourself to be a woman". How would that be? I think you understand what a fantasy is. Peeps have all kinds of kinky ◊◊◊◊ they get off on in the boudoir. If it stays in there (as Frank's did), it's sex play. Do you think consenting adults who are into S&M are really Dr Mengele? When my wife loses a bet and is the slave girl, do you think either of us really endorses human trafficking IRL? Frank was whacked out on drugs, by his own telling. When he SOBERED UP, it was all dropped. That shows pretty damned clearly how much he sincerely identified with his drug fueled sexual deviances.
Rolfe's claim, and the twitterer who said it affects "most" transgenders, is empty, and Frank never claimed to be a woman outside of his private drugged up sex play. He also did ladyboys, and was the "bottom" in his play, btw. Are you guys making all kinds of homosexual inferences too? Or is that different?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Don't know whom you're quoting here, but it's definitely not the DSM definition of dysphoria and it's probably not the defintion of transgender identity from any given pro-trans lobby group.
Thermal
August Member
You asked the question in scare quotes. I answered in kind.
I'd certainly hope not.
Declaring, identifying, who the hell cares. The point was clear enough.