Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[EHocking]

Seriously? Without checking the regulations, I'd have thought that would be against the law, at least in the UK.

Or here either. Who would check? Speedometer tolerance is a law here, dunno about odometer accuracy or manner of measurement.
The class action may be interesting to watch unfold and may well have repercussions in other countries’ markets.

 

[Rolfe]

an encoder. while they can be mounted and implemented in a variety of ways, when they're built into a motor as a part of the package, it's what differentiates a standard electric motor from a servo motor. they're mostly used in industry to either monitor position and/or speed. obviously in robotics they're used to determine a joint position to determine where the robot arm is, they are also frequently mounted to shafts to determine speed in relation to the timing of something else. for example, when applying a spray lot code to a package, if you mount one on a conveyor drive shaft and trigger a photo eye you can determine the speed of the conveyor, where the package will be, and apply the lot code consistently, and it can be done dynamically so you can run at different speeds without having to change timings and move equipment around.

anyway, they're pretty handy and the kind of the backbone of moving from machines driven mechanically to electronics

of course, you have to write some code to take the pulses and convert them into a measurement of distance. none of that is difficult and encoders are very accurate, especially when you're thinking terms of miles instead of thousandths of an inch.



and that makes it sound like they're lying and messing with the odometer readout. which, it being tesla, of course they are.

I'm not really convinced by this story. But on the other hand, dieselgate happened, so we'll see.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Regarding odometers, for generations cars measured how fast the transmission was turning and that drove both the speedometer and the odometer and they worked perfectly well. Now all cars come with ABS they constantly measure how fast all 4 wheels are turning anyway, so it's trivial to use that information for speedo and odo.

An odometer which measures something other than how far the car has travelled is one of the stupidest thing I ever heard.

 

[dirtywick]

I'm not really convinced by this story. But on the other hand, dieselgate happened, so we'll see.

tesla has a pretty good track record of deception and fraud though, whether it’s lying by omission to regulators to straight up lying to consumers about what their products can do.

all i mean to say is i don’t give them the benefit of the doubt

 

[Dabop]

tesla has a pretty good track record of deception and fraud though, whether it’s lying by omission to regulators to straight up lying to consumers about what their products can do.

all i mean to say is i don’t give them the benefit of the doubt

Anyone who still gives Tesla or musk the slightest benefit of the doubt at this stage is either a hopeless 'fanboi' or has rocks in their head....

 

[Darat]

Item in most of today's papers about charging/using your phone in Chinese made EVs.

I'd hate to be the poor sod who listens in on my calls, or reads my texts. Mind you, he/she would learn a lot about my dental appointments. And which booth we are in at the local boozer...

From that article why would they have "work" phones they can connect to anything bar other security approved equipment?

 

[Darat]

I don't like the way that sounds. Seems as if it would be very easy to create a sensor to measure actual wheel rotation. And be prevented from screwing with it. My experience is companies will get away with anything if they think it is more profitable.

You mean the same sensors used in cars for the last what 20 years? You could do it with a simple mechanica device.

 

[Darat]

After checking, it appears there's not even a requirement for an odometer, nor that if one is present that it should be working to a certain standard. You're not allowed to report a false reading or tamper with it, but that's a different matter.

Are Teslas reporting a false reading? I can see it being an advertising issue even if not a car regulation issue.

I presume all the test drivers that writes review don't use the distance given on the odometer?

 

[Darat]

Anyone who still gives Tesla or musk the slightest benefit of the doubt at this stage is either a hopeless 'fanboi' or has rocks in their head....

Or of course simply agrees with his fascism.

 

[jadebox]

Regarding odometers, for generations cars measured how fast the transmission was turning and that drove both the speedometer and the odometer and they worked perfectly well.

That didn't work well in my first car ... The speedometer and odometer were way off - until I replaced the odd-size tires that the previous owner had installed. Replacing the tires also made the car a lot easier to steer.

When my odometer and speedometer were wrong because of the tire sizes, it was very obvious to me as I drove. For one thing, road signs displayed the number of miles to an exit which didn't match what I saw on my odometer.

If Tesla is manipulating their odometer and it wasn't obvious to drivers from the start (especially in a car with a large GPS-driven map display), then the difference must be quite small.

 

[zooterkin]

Are Teslas reporting a false reading? I can see it being an advertising issue even if not a car regulation issue.

To clarify, I would say, if the article is correct, then Tesla cars are reporting an inaccurate reading. A false reading would be, for example, when advertising the car for sale or registration and you report a different value from that shown on the odometer.

I presume all the test drivers that writes review don't use the distance given on the odometer?

No idea, though I would expect them to check to be accurate if they were testing economy, and if there were significant deviations I'd expect them to note it.

 

[Rolfe]

That didn't work well in my first car ... The speedometer and odometer were way off - until I replaced the odd-size tires that the previous owner had installed. Replacing the tires also made the car a lot easier to steer.

When my odometer and speedometer were wrong because of the tire sizes, it was very obvious to me as I drove. For one thing, road signs displayed the number of miles to an exit which didn't match what I saw on my odometer.

If Tesla is manipulating their odometer and it wasn't obvious to drivers from the start (especially in a car with a large GPS-driven map display), then the difference must be quite small.

That was what I thought. I know my MG4's trip counter is a bit dodgy, sometimes seems to show a bit more than the actual distance, sometimes a bit less. A reviewer noticed it and thought there was a constant 2.5% (or something like that) under-reading, but I've seen it over-read by that amount too. I haven't paid any attention to the actual odometer, though why wouldn't it be the same as the trip counter? But it seems like a bug to me, and not a very important one. I barely notice it most of the time. I would have thought that for enough of a discrepancy to be useful, it would also be noticeable.

The Tesla claim is that a number of owners formed the subjective impression that their cars reached 50,000 miles very quickly, then the counter slowed right down afterwards. The allegation is that this has been done so that the cars pass out of warranty sooner than they otherwise would have, then the mileage is recorded correctly. I just don't really buy this as a plausible plot. How many miles could Tesla plausibly shave off the warranty like that? 5,000? 10%? I'd have thought even that would be noticeable just in terms of, "we should be there by now but the road sign says we still have five miles to go." Notice that often enough and you'd say something. But apparently nobody has. Also, many people use third-party GPS and satnav systems to record mileage for business purposes, and surely that would also reveal all.

Then thinking about it the other way, how many warranty claims is Tesla getting in these last 5,000 miles of the warranty period? These cars generally throw the faults they're going to throw in the first few thousand miles, then go on for ages. The idea that they're experiencing a lot of claims just before the warranty runs out, enough that they'd jemmy all their cars to avoid it, isn't passing the sniff test for me.

 

[The Don]

Yes. We're hearing a lot from the EV haters about how these cars are disposable because you'll have to replace the battery in five years at the cost of £40,000 or so, which is absolute nonsense but sounds scary. But consider the scenario where you have maybe a ten year old car which is doing just fine but someone is offering a replacement battery with twice the range and twice the DC charging speed for a couple of thousand. Starts to get a bit tempting.

Much like the current situation with the 1st generation Leafs.

ETA: I see the discussion about warranties and "right to repair", but I'm talking about vehicles out of warranty which are simply performing as they have done all along, maybe a bit of range loss, but there is the prospect of transforming them by a relatively inexpensive modification. My MG4 SE SR has a 51 kwh battery and a maximum DC charging speed of about 85 kw. It's fine. But maybe in 8-10 years that will be looking silly and I could have a new battery fitted that would give me a 400-mile range and a 15-minute DC charging time. At that point, if it's not expensive, why wouldn't you?

T'would be nice. I'm not an expert but I understand that speed of changing is governed by the vehicle's electrical "architecture" which I'm not sure could be changed by simply changing the battery pack. OTOH more range is a definite possibility
ty.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... A reviewer noticed it and thought there was a constant 2.5% (or something like that) under-reading

2.5% isn't much. If you're measuring distance by counting the number of times the wheels go around, new tyres vs worn tyres can account for a 2% difference. Nowadays I suppose a system could get more accurate by occasionally recalibrating itself, comparing with GPS.

 

[Dabop]

T'would be nice. I'm not an expert but I understand that speed of changing is governed by the vehicle's electrical "architecture" which I'm not sure could be changed by simply changing the battery pack. OTOH more range is a definite possibility
ty.

The onboard charger has limitations, and is separate to the battery pack, so charging speed wouldn't vary...
(direct DC chargers 'may' show an increase, but then many models will still limit the charge current even on DC chargers, so there's a good probability that even then the charge speed wouldn't increase....)

 

[bruto]

Yes. We're hearing a lot from the EV haters about how these cars are disposable because you'll have to replace the battery in five years at the cost of £40,000 or so, which is absolute nonsense but sounds scary. But consider the scenario where you have maybe a ten year old car which is doing just fine but someone is offering a replacement battery with twice the range and twice the DC charging speed for a couple of thousand. Starts to get a bit tempting.

Much like the current situation with the 1st generation Leafs.

ETA: I see the discussion about warranties and "right to repair", but I'm talking about vehicles out of warranty which are simply performing as they have done all along, maybe a bit of range loss, but there is the prospect of transforming them by a relatively inexpensive modification. My MG4 SE SR has a 51 kwh battery and a maximum DC charging speed of about 85 kw. It's fine. But maybe in 8-10 years that will be looking silly and I could have a new battery fitted that would give me a 400-mile range and a 15-minute DC charging time. At that point, if it's not expensive, why wouldn't you?

Agreed almost 100 percent, except that "right to repair" will continue to be an issue for things with software and proprietary parts for their entire life, and for warranties it kind of depends on how long they go. My Hyundai came with a 100 thousand mile ten year warranty. While a warranty like that would make it pretty silly to go to a third party for a major repair, it would have some leverage if there were some kicker that says replacing a trunk latch relay or a shock absorber or a bent fender voids it. For such issues, US law has addressed much of the blackmail issue, but there's probably still a gray area for electric cars, especially if there is some proprietary software in the battery unit that is deemed critical to overall operation.

But I do think that as long as the body and major drivetrain components remain useable many cars will be worth putting a new battery in, and given the high initial cost, the mechanical simplicity of the drivetrain, and improvements in body contstruction (as well as differences in climate), that will be happening enough to support a third party industry. We have to remember, for example, that although a car may rot into the ground in 10 or 15 years up here in the muddy rust belt, the same car in Georgia or California is likely to go to the junkyard with an intact frame, with overall wear and tear that were liveable until the engine or transmission blew.

 

[Rolfe]

T'would be nice. I'm not an expert but I understand that speed of changing is governed by the vehicle's electrical "architecture" which I'm not sure could be changed by simply changing the battery pack. OTOH more range is a definite possibility
ty.

I don't honestly know about the charging speed thing.

 

[Rolfe]

2.5% isn't much. If you're measuring distance by counting the number of times the wheels go around, new tyres vs worn tyres can account for a 2% difference. Nowadays I suppose a system could get more accurate by occasionally recalibrating itself, comparing with GPS.

Might just depend on the tyre pressure then, which might explain why I have been seeing it vary, perhaps depending on what the tyre pressure was at the time. But I noticed the 2.5%, and so did Bjorn Nyland when he was reviewing the car. That sort of difference would be hardly worth having for Tesla, and I think much more would have excited more precise comment than "I thought the first 50,000 miles went really quickly and then the miles seemed to go more slowly," which is about all it amounts to at the moment.

 

[The Don]

Might just depend on the tyre pressure then, which might explain why I have been seeing it vary, perhaps depending on what the tyre pressure was at the time. But I noticed the 2.5%, and so did Bjorn Nyland when he was reviewing the car. That sort of difference would be hardly worth having for Tesla, and I think much more would have excited more precise comment than "I thought the first 50,000 miles went really quickly and then the miles seemed to go more slowly," which is about all it amounts to at the moment.

An intentional over-read, even one that small, would provide a useful incremental boost to range and efficiency figures as well as using up the warranty.

 

[Rolfe]

Agreed almost 100 percent, except that "right to repair" will continue to be an issue for things with software and proprietary parts for their entire life, and for warranties it kind of depends on how long they go. My Hyundai came with a 100 thousand mile ten year warranty. While a warranty like that would make it pretty silly to go to a third party for a major repair, it would have some leverage if there were some kicker that says replacing a trunk latch relay or a shock absorber or a bent fender voids it. For such issues, US law has addressed much of the blackmail issue, but there's probably still a gray area for electric cars, especially if there is some proprietary software in the battery unit that is deemed critical to overall operation.

But I do think that as long as the body and major drivetrain components remain useable many cars will be worth putting a new battery in, and given the high initial cost, the mechanical simplicity of the drivetrain, and improvements in body contstruction (as well as differences in climate), that will be happening enough to support a third party industry. We have to remember, for example, that although a car may rot into the ground in 10 or 15 years up here in the muddy rust belt, the same car in Georgia or California is likely to go to the junkyard with an intact frame, with overall wear and tear that were liveable until the engine or transmission blew.

When the engine in my GTi blew up at 35,000 miles and 2 years 9 months of age (warranty was 60,000 miles and 3 years) VW got pretty stroppy because I hadn't had it serviced by a VW dealer. They made my garage jump through all sorts of hoops including sending receipts for the approved grade of VW oil to show he'd bought it for the car. There was a sudden panic when he phoned me and asked me if I'd given the account for my most recent service to VW. I said no, it was still in my briefcase, unpaid, because it the engine had blown up quite soon after the service. He said, destroy it and I'll issue you with a new one. The reason was that he'd use a third-party paper air filter rather than a VW one, because he couldn't get a VW one, and he had noted it on the invoice. He re-issued the invoice without that damning admission! I said, won't they notice when they get the car back? He said no way, it is and looks identical to the VW-produced item. Nothing to do with the failure anyway, which I think was a timing chain/belt failure.

All was well and I got a new engine for free. But it shows the lengths you have to go to. VW even refused me a courtesy car as a punishment for not using their dealership, so I had to hire a car for a week.

In a way the 7-year warranty on the MG4 is a bit of a ball and chain tying me to their bloody dealership. It's not so much the parts and so on though, although I don't know if my local garage is able to "service" EVs, it's the software. My car is booked for its 2-year service next week and I just drove to the dealer this morning and handed them a written list of things to do. One mechanical repair which is under warranty, a faulty door handle button, and three software issues. Last time it took me five months to get the software update done because they didn't bother while it was in for its service despite emails and so on. This time they have actual paper.

We're whittling down the software issues though. There are actually only two things left unaddressed, and I don't know whether they'll address these or not now. Once the car is as it should be, I'll probably just get the local garage or Cleveley to do the servicing and hang any further software updates.