Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Mycroft]

Absolutely. I do not feel kindly towards the people who have been working their socks off to remove my rights for the past ten years. I have had it up to here with the tone police.

I was recently told not all trans-people are TRA's. Do they deserve your pejoratives too? Or do they get it just for being "weird"?

 

[d4m10n]

Again, should all trans-people be judged by the heinous actions of the worst of them?

I don't think that is the point of taking note of the heinous actors, though.

When females say they want males out of some given space, it's mostly about keeping the most exploitative and predatory males out.

Ordinary males would (ordinarily) be embarrassed to transgress those boundaries in the first place, so they aren't really a factor.

 

[Mycroft]

And when the definition of 'live as a female' becomes too complex (or internally incoherent), it resolves to 'identifies as' again, via self-ID.

Does it really?

Self-ID, at least according to the fear-mongers, means Danny Trejo can, on a whim, put on lipstick to invade a woman's bathroom and rape a cis-woman.

That's not the same as someone with gender-dysphoria who is committed to transitioning, even if the exact line between them is hard to define.

We define "black" by the one-drop rule, because any other definition is hard to define too.

 

[Mycroft]

...maybe Mycroft (because he's clueless about this topic)...

Address the argument and not the arguer.

If you can't keep your emotions in check, I suggest you take a break.

 

[Mycroft]

But if a male self-IDs as a transwoman, we cannot see any difference between before and after.

That's why Danny Trejo needs lipstick, so you can tell.

If I walk into the ladies loo and my presence is challenged, then under Self-ID policy, all I have to do is say the magic words "I am a woman" and the woman can no longer legally challenge my right to be there.

So the claim goes, but I think if Danny Trejo walked into a woman's room people would challenge him being there regardless of the colour of his lipstick. The idea that political correctness is like an ocean tide that sweeps away all common sense is silly to me.

 

[d4m10n]

The idea that political correctness is like an ocean tide that sweeps away all common sense is silly to me.

No other hypothesis can explain why Wi Spa defended Merager at first.

 

[Mycroft]

Whereas males who adopt feminine styles and accessories are not? I do not assume there is a sharp line to be drawn between admiring a (sub)culture and adopting it as one's own, given the opportunity. I've even seen this process play out on occasion, typically to adolescents or teens.

I don't think some men wearing "guyshadow" in any way invalidates the concepts of transidentity.

No sharp lines. Human identity is messy.

Now you're faulting her for avoiding an ancestral claim in favor of a cultural one?

I read it as him taking note of it, not faulting it. But Thermal is pretty good at speaking for himself.

 

[Mycroft]

No other hypothesis can explain why Wi Spa defended Merager at first.

You know what you know, but you don't know what you don't know.

It was described as a trans-positive spa. Protecting their customers is all the motive they need.

As far as I know there was no law in place either way.

 

[Mycroft]

The only time anyone cares what gender you claim is when you're trying to gain access. That's not a conflation, that is the ONLY important usage scenario.

Nobody cares when you try to gain access either.

Seriously, has anyone ever checked you before allowing you into a public bathroom? What change in policy do you think will change that, and how do you think it will change?

 

[Ziggurat]

When I defined woman for you

I’m not talking about YOU not defining woman, I’m talking about some other people not defining woman, and comparing that to your inability to define your position in a coherent manner. Which, I note, you still refuse to do. I’m sensing a pattern. Let’s see if it continues.

When I asked you how you tell who is a cis-woman or cis-man and allowed to use the woman's or men's room respectively, you lost your mind declaring anyone can tell when they see it,

That’s a bizarre interpretation of what I actually said. I said people are pretty good at determining biological sex. You didn’t actually challenge this. You didn’t actually present an argument or evidence that we are bad at this. For the purposes of sex segregation, no determination that someone is cis anything ever needs to be made, because that involves gender, and gender is irrelevant. It has never been my position that only cis women can use the women’s bathroom and cis men can use the men’s bathroom. That would be stupid, and isn’t in line with the concept of sex segregation rather than gender segregation.

completely missing the irony of not being able to come up with a workable definition.

Biological sex is very easy to define. And it’s usually pretty easy to determine as well.

If you actually pass as the opposite sex and use the opposite sex facilities, that’s usually an acceptable outcome. Most transwomen don’t actually pass.

 

[Ziggurat]

Nobody cares when you try to gain access either.

This thread wouldn’t exist if that were true.

Seriously, has anyone ever checked you before allowing you into a public bathroom?

Why the “before” qualifier? Because that way you get to ignore what would happen after I entered a women’s bathroom wit women in it, in a place which didn’t operate under self ID.

What change in policy do you think will change that, and how do you think it will change?

Women who object to men in their bathrooms can complain, and actually have those men removed, rather than being kicked out themselves for complaining. Which has actually happened. Funny how you never seem able to grapple with real world events. You just dismiss them as cherry picking.

 

[Mycroft]

I’m not talking about YOU not defining woman, I’m talking about some other people not defining woman...

I argue with the people here, with what they say here and now. I suggest you do the same. If not, you are using a straw-man.

Nobody cares if you have an argument that can be used somewhere else except for those who already agree with you and wish it applied here too.

and comparing that to your inability to define your position in a coherent manner. Which, I note, you still refuse to do. I’m sensing a pattern. Let’s see if it continues.

My position only seems hard to define because you struggle to fit it into a box of your own creation. Let go of the box and you will find dialogue much easier.

That’s a bizarre interpretation of what I actually said. I said people are pretty good at determining biological sex. You didn’t actually challenge this...

I didn't challenge it because that's been my position all along. Usually when people try to define woman in terms of pelvic bone, geneltalia or chromosomes, I respond with something like, |Really? I've never needed to check those things before determining if someone is a man or woman".

f you actually pass as the opposite sex and use the opposite sex facilities, that’s usually an acceptable outcome.

What if they pass and are still rapists?

 

[Mycroft]

Bryson is trans, by definition. On what grounds do you plan to exclude him from that group? And how is it fear mongering to talk about facts? Bryson is real, I didn't make him up.

The fear-mongering is equating trans-people with Bryson, not including Bryson in trans-people.

There are plenty of heinous humans on the Earth, but we don't equate all humans with the heinous ones.

There are plenty of heinous women on the Earth, how do you propose to exclude them from the woman's bathroom?

You don't seem capable of grappling with the reality of these issues.

Argument not the arguer.

 

[Mycroft]

Are you under some notion that black women are okay with guys going to the lady's toliet?

Did I say that? No?

If I didn't say it, then assume it's not my opinion.

In general when you find yourself asking someone if they're under some notion when you didn't see them say it, then you're making up a straw-man. The best bet is to just walk away and continue to watch.

 

[Mycroft]

Every time someone tries to equate sex and race like this, I know they've lost. It's an intellectually dishonest argument, an attempt to borrow the moral standing of a different cause without earning it.

I disagree it's intellectually dishonest. It seems apt to me.

If you have to declare someone else the loser of an argument...

 

[Mycroft]

The point was never that trans people are bad.

If the point is not that trans-people are bad, then stop bringing up bad trans-people as though they represent all trans-people.

 

[Mycroft]

Women who object to men in their bathrooms can complain, and actually have those men removed, rather than being kicked out themselves for complaining. Which has actually happened. Funny how you never seem able to grapple with real world events. You just dismiss them as cherry picking.

A woman could object to Danny Trejo in the woman's room? What if he was wearing lipstick?

 

[Mycroft]

Why the “before” qualifier? Because that way you get to ignore what would happen after I entered a women’s bathroom wit women in it, in a place which didn’t operate under self ID.

I said public bathroom, not woman's bathroom. I assume you would choose a men's public bathroom.

Nobody checks either way before, during or after. So...?

 

[smartcooky]

There are plenty of heinous humans on the Earth, but we don't equate all humans with the heinous ones.

Yes, and we have rules and laws that we ALL obey because of those heinous humans.

 

[Pixel42]

And once again the problem of the innocent, decent man wading into this discussion rears its head. Some good men know what evil monsters some of their brothers can be, but others can't even imagine a man wanting to behave like that.

I'm guessing Mycroft didn't follow the Pelicot case. That scumbag had no problem finding over 70 men living within 30 miles of his rural home who were very happy to accept his invitation to come and rape his unconscious wife whilst he watched and filmed them doing it. The celebrity cases also confirm just how many men there are who are keen to pester, harass and even assault women, given only the opportunity and a reasonable chance of getting away with it. Which is exactly what self ID provides them.

Maybe Mycroft should ask his legion of female friends whether they've ever been the subject of unwanted male sexual attention. Tell us that percentage.