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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Mycroft said:
If so then raising the issue of a particularly heinous trans-person is irrelevant and hateful hysteria.

Why do you keep doing it?
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It's not at all irrelevant. If you were really arguing for allowing all men into women's intimate spaces (you threw out the idea but haven't really backed it), examples of non-trans male predators would be just as relevant and on point. But it's mostly unnecessary because almost nobody is in denial that they exist. There's a lot of denial that transwomen predators exist. Especially from you, since you can't answer a single question about how to deal with them.

I'm strongly reminded of all the TRAs who get that deer in the headlights look when asked to define "woman". It's as if you're stuck on cognitive dissonance you can't resolve, so you just dodge.
 
Mycroft said:
If you can't define exactly where orange becomes yellow on a colour wheel, the very concepts of orange and yellow are invalidated.

There is no orange or yellow.
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It's actually pretty easy to define the difference. The choice is somewhat arbitrary, owing to the fact that color is a spectrum, but it's still easy to do. Given that sex (not sexual characteristics, but sex) is NOT a spectrum, certainly not in humans, making distinction is even easier. And if you want to segregate based on such differences, you have to be able to. Once again, you seem to be arguing against any sex segregation at all.
 
Thermal said:
Right, and you have the occasional nut who surgically modifies himself to be a lizard. When their numbers get into the millions, I'll start paying closer attention. As long as we can count them all on one hand worldwide, I'm comfy dismissing them as aberrations
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Clearly we need lizard lounges for lounge lizards.

I think I just dated myself. No matter. I'm old.
 
Mycroft said:
I know you're going to say men are the oppressor group, but we're not talking about all men, we're just talking about trans-people.
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Trans people are not asking for a space for themselves, are they?

Females (an historically oppressed group) have done so, as have the proponents of affinity housing.
 
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Ziggurat said:
In effect you have. Because that's what self ID allows. Self ID is an end to sex segregation, but with extra steps.
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It's still a straw-man. It's still dead. You win, against that straw-man.

If you have to preface my opinion with terms like "in effect" then you're extrapolating and it's not really my opinion.

Please leave expressing my opinion to me. I'll try my best to leave expressing your opinion to you.
 
Mycroft said:
Please leave expressing my opinion to me. I'll try my best to leave expressing your opinion to you.
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You seem peculiarly reluctant to do so with any clarity. So come out and say it. Are you in favor of or opposed to self ID? And if you are opposed, then on what basis should transpeople be permitted to circumvent sex segregation, and why? The only arguments I've seen from you so far are indistinguishable from arguments for self ID.
 
d4m10n said:
Trans people are not asking for a space for themselves, are they?

Females (an historically oppressed group) have done so.
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Women asked for bathrooms in the workplace because the lack of bathrooms was used as a reason not to hire women.

Public bathrooms, and the article you provided backs this up, were created to allow women to go shopping.

I read that and it seems like I'm trivializing going shopping. I'm not.
 
Ziggurat said:
You seem peculiarly reluctant to do so with any clarity...
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That's because you keep trying to wrestle my opinion into your straw-man of my opinion.


Ziggurat said:
So come out and say it. Are you in favor of or opposed to self ID? And if you are opposed, then on what basis should transpeople be permitted to circumvent sex segregation, and why? The only arguments I've seen from you so far are indistinguishable from arguments for self ID.
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If you can't tell what my opinion is, why are you working so hard to argue against it?

I just had a flash-back. The last time I said that on this forum I was talking to The Fool. C'est change, I guess. :)
 
I note you have made no effort to actual answer any of my rather direct questions. Odd.
 
Mycroft said:
If you can't tell what my opinion is, why are you working so hard to argue against it?
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We can't tell what your opinion on that question is, because you have been somewhat intellectually dishonest in working very hard to obscure that opinion

So I ask...

1. Yes or No... do you support the concept of fiat Self ID?

2. Yes or No... do you support the existence of sex-segregated spaces where that segregation is based on biological sex?
 
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Ziggurat said:
I'm strongly reminded of all the TRAs who get that deer in the headlights look when asked to define "woman". It's as if you're stuck on cognitive dissonance you can't resolve, so you just dodge.
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When I defined woman for you, you didn't like that the courts and media used the term the same way I defined it, at least for Caitlyn Jenner. Thermal provided a definition that includes living as a woman, and you declared that definition invalid. Pages later, you still keep putting up this debunked talking point.

When I asked you how you tell who is a cis-woman or cis-man and allowed to use the woman's or men's room respectively, you lost your mind declaring anyone can tell when they see it, completely missing the irony of not being able to come up with a workable definition.
 
smartcooky said:
1. Yes or No... do you support the concept of fiat Self ID?
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Have you ever seen me say that? Yes or no?

smartcooky said:
2. Yes or No... do you support the existence of sex-segregated spaces where that segregation is based on biological sex?
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If I've been arguing from the beginning that trans-women should be considered a subset of women, what do you think my response would be to a definition that excluded trans-women? Also, if you can answer this question now when you had the same information dozens of pages ago, how can you claim I'm not being forthcoming in any way?
 
Ziggurat said:
You do realize that Trans Rights Activist (TRA) doesn't mean a trans person, right? Most TRAs aren't even trans, and a lot of trans people aren't TRAs. I'm pretty sure you've expressed at least as much hate towards your political opponents as is in that post.
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You know who white-supremacists hate more than black people? White people who don't hate black people.

The Turner Diaries involved the killing of a lot of white people.
 
Mycroft said:
Have you ever seen me say that? Yes or no?



If I've been arguing from the beginning that trans-women should be considered a subset of women, what do you think my response would be to a definition that excluded trans-women? Also, if you can answer this question now when you had the same information dozens of pages ago, how can you claim I'm not being forthcoming in any way?
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I expected you would dishonestly dodge these questions... I was not disappointed.
 
smartcooky said:
I expected you would dishonestly dodge these questions... I was not disappointed.
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You have never seen me say that, so the answer to 1 is no.

Not stating the obvious is not being dishonest or dodging.

For future reference, if you haven't seen me say it you should not attribute it to me.

If you want to have an open and honest discussion, the first step is to stop trying to fit me in a box of your making.
 
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