Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

Jesus christ dude, you almost have it. You're like thiiiiiiiis close.

You are trying to get an outside, objective standard. There really can't be one, as it's an internal sense. That's what self ID means. Only you can really know. But you can absolutely misrepresent that self ID for nefarious purposes. That's where you are dropping the ball, and insisting that it is reeeeeaaally a self assertion, which is different. I can self assert that I am a ferret, but that's a lie. I do not identify as a ferret.
SO I CANNOT SELF ID AS A FERRET WITHOUT LYING.

This is because we can immediately see the physical difference between you and a ferret.

But if a male self-IDs as a transwoman, we cannot see any difference between before and after. If I walk into the ladies loo and my presence is challenged, then under Self-ID policy, all I have to do is say the magic words "I am a woman" and the woman can no longer legally challenge my right to be there. I may internally know that I am lying is there no way for anyone else to tell. My words become irrefutable, de-facto truth.

 

[Thermal]

This is because we can immediately see the physical difference between you and a ferret.

But if a male self-IDs as a transwoman, we cannot see any difference between before and after. If I walk into the ladies loo and my presence is challenged, then under Self-ID policy, all I have to do is say the magic words "I am a woman" that the woman can no longer legally challenge my right to be there. I may internally know that I am lying is there no way for anyone else to tell.

Right. You can only self ID (state your gender) yourself. But using (or abusing) that to gain access (self Iding your presence) is a different usage. The two are being conflated and equivocated way too often.

 

[d4m10n]

Cosplay costs a bunch, yes.

Personally, I try to avoid derogating people's trans identity by calling it "cosplay" or "womanface" because that implies they are less than sincere in their desire to assimilate to the new group, and (of course) we have no way of knowing their subjective state of mind, as you said.

Still, she doesn't appear to be doing anything more than emulating a culture she thinks is cool.

Whereas males who adopt feminine styles and accessories are not? I do not assume there is a sharp line to be drawn between admiring a (sub)culture and adopting it as one's own, given the opportunity. I've even seen this process play out on occasion, typically to adolescents or teens.

On her wiki page, she even says she does not identify as African American. Just as 'black'.

Now you're faulting her for avoiding an ancestral claim in favor of a cultural one?

 

[smartcooky]

Right. You can only self ID (state your gender) yourself. But using (or abusing) that to gain access (self Iding your presence) is a different usage. The two are being conflated and equivocated way too often.

Because, and I know that you continue to be unable to understand this, THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE!

 

[Thermal]

Personally, I try to avoid derogating people's trans identity

As do I, as you might have noticed with my deferential referring to trans folk. But Dolezal doesn't meet the bar.

Whereas males who adopt feminine styles and accessories are not?

As I've said, I'm sure some do.

Now you're faulting her for avoiding an ancestral claim in favor of a cultural one?

No. I'm pointing out that everything she has done and said on the matter appears to be unadulterated bull ◊◊◊◊. There's a difference.

 

[Thermal]

Because, and I know that you continue to be unable to understand this, THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE!

NOR IS THERE ANY GODDAMNED REASON TO. YOU ARE NOT THE PENIS POLICE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

You do not need, for any reason, to be able to "tell the difference".

Do you understsnd the distinction I'm making at all? I get that we will not likely see eye to eye on this, but for the life of me I can't figure out why you claim you literally don't understand someone else's viewpoint. It ain't complicated.

 

[Ziggurat]

Right. You can only self ID (state your gender) yourself. But using (or abusing) that to gain access (self Iding your presence) is a different usage. The two are being conflated and equivocated way too often.

The only time anyone cares what gender you claim is when you're trying to gain access. That's not a conflation, that is the ONLY important usage scenario.

 

[Ziggurat]

NOR IS THERE ANY GODDAMNED REASON TO. YOU ARE NOT THE PENIS POLICE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

You do not need, for any reason, to be able to "tell the difference".

Should Bryson have access to women's bathrooms?

 

[theprestige]

The only time anyone cares what gender you claim is when you're trying to gain access. That's not a conflation, that is the ONLY important usage scenario.

I tried to explain this to @Thermal before. Gender decoupled from sex has no practical applications. It only matters when it's being used as a proxy for sex. E.g., in order to justify overriding sex segregation.

"I identify as a woman" is functionally meaningless, except as a preamble to "therefore I'm entitled to override sex segregation."

 

[theprestige]

NOR IS THERE ANY GODDAMNED REASON TO.

I actually agree with this. There is no goddamn reason to distinguish between sincere and insincere self-ID.

This is because there is no goddamn reason for males to override sex segregation, regardless of how they identify. When it comes to sports, prisons, locker rooms, bathrooms, representation, etc., it doesn't matter if they're sincere or not.

The only way a male's sincerity in claiming they are female actually matters is that such a person needs therapy, not women's sports.

 

[Thermal]

The only time anyone cares what gender you claim is when you're trying to gain access. That's not a conflation, that is the ONLY important usage scenario.

To you. It's the only important usage scenario to you.

 

[Thermal]

I tried to explain this to @Thermal before. Gender decoupled from sex has no practical applications.

Again with the decoupled.

Dude, no one is decoupling anything. Things can be coupled and still not be the same.

It only matters when it's being used as a proxy for sex. E.g., in order to justify overriding sex segregation.

"I identify as a woman" is functionally meaningless, except as a preamble to "therefore I'm entitled to override sex segregation."

To you. It is functionally meaningless to you. To a transperson, it's an affirmation of self hood. Meaningless to you, sure. Not to them and to those who don't hate them.

 

[Ziggurat]

To you. It's the only important usage scenario to you.

Name another scenario where it matters. One in which public policy is implicated (because I do not care what other people freely choose to do on their own). I suppose there's also compelled pronoun usage, but that's much the same: it only matters when you're trying to force other people into doing or not doing something.

 

[Thermal]

Name another scenario where it matters. One in which public policy is implicated (because I do not care what other people freely choose to do on their own). I suppose there's also compelled pronoun usage, but that's much the same: it only matters when you're trying to force other people into doing or not doing something.

You're not 'forcing people' when you tell others that you are a little different in a way they might not be accustomed to. You're not forcing people to be polite. You're not forcing people to let you pee.

The only forcing going on is forcing the transpeople to know their place and stay in their lane (that they are being forced to stay in). Eventually, they started pushing back. Then you claim they are the ones doing the 'forcing'.

 

[theprestige]

To you. It's the only important usage scenario to you.

It's the only important usage for public policy purposes.

 

[Rolfe]

You're not 'forcing people' when you tell others tbat you are a little different in a way they might not be accustomed to. You're not forcing people to be polite. You're not forcing people to let you pee.

The only forcing going on is forcing the transpeople to know their place and stay in their lane (that they are being forced to stay in). Eventually, they started pushing back. Then you claim they are the ones doing the 'forcing'.

They should know their place and stay in their lane. Everybody else has to. It's part of being a grown-up and understanding that you can't just do whatever the hell you want to do and then have a screaming tantrum if anyone tries to stop you.

 

[Rolfe]

Interesting one. Bloke is legitimately entitled to use the disabled toilets, but insists on using the women's anyway, and is now all butt-hurt when HR tell him to use the disabled. Because it's "his right as a woman" to invade the women's space.

 

[Thermal]

It's the only important usage for public policy purposes.

The conversation, you may have noted, occasionally detours from that single minded objective. We were in the midst of just such a detour.

 

[Thermal]

They should know their place and stay in their lane.

Thanks. The openness is refreshing.

Everybody else has to.

Not like they are getting made to. You openly LOLed at transwomen who want to help at rape centers (I have a hard time condemning such workers) being labeled "weirdos".

It's part of being a grown-up and understanding that you can't just do whatever the hell you want to do and then have a screaming tantrum if anyone tries to stop you.

Maybe they are getting a little testy at you laughing at them generically being called weirdos? Maybe they don't want their names plastered as perpetrators of sex crimes they didn't commit, and have you reposting it? You ever think about that?

 

[Ziggurat]

You're not 'forcing people' when you tell others that you are a little different in a way they might not be accustomed to.

Nobody here objects to that.

The only forcing going on is forcing the transpeople to know their place and stay in their lane

You mean not letting them opt out of sex segregation because they feel like it?

Yeah. Because they haven't changed sex. No even with surgery, not even with hormones (and a decreasing number of them even do that). They're in the same ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ lane as me. Boo ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ hoo, how terrible of me to not extend them special privileges. That's what they're asking for, and throwing a ◊◊◊◊ fit when they don't get it.