Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

Oh please. I changed the word 'that' to 'self ID' which you spelled out in the previous sentence for simple brevity.

Let's go to the full quote, shall we?

Why is it a lie? According to self ID, if I say I'm a woman, then I'm a woman. The declaration made it so. There is no such thing as lying about that. For it to be a lie, you would need some sort of test that didn't rely on my testimony that could determine my gender. And self ID does not allow for any other test. Lying about that is literally impossible.

It's not actually the previous sentence where I used "self ID", it's several sentences earlier, but that's a minor quibble. The more important fact is that you didn't understand either that sentence or the last one. Note that in this sentence:

"According to self ID, if I say I'm a woman, then I'm a woman."

the "self ID" I'm referring to is the trans activist paradigm of how identity works, and NOT any particular person's identification. The sentence makes sense for the former, it does not make sense for the latter. Moreover, "that" does NOT refer to self ID, but to saying I'm a woman. What I say can be a lie or not a lie. Self ID as a set of rules cannot be evaluated as a lie or not a lie. You can follow those rules or not follow those rules, but the truth of the rules themselves isn't a thing to evaluate.

And you provided no definition at all

Correct, I did not at the time define "self ID". Because I thought by now everyone understood what "self ID" means. Apparently I assumed to much about your understanding of this issue, given how long you have been participating in this thread. I have defined it in my previous post, though, so this is no longer an excuse for you.

simply claiming it was literally impossible.

Yes. It is impossible to lie about your gender identity if your statement of your gender identity is what defines your gender identity. See how that logically works? It's conditional on having the paradigm of self ID where your statement of identity defines your identity, and you can and should reject that paradigm, but that's rather my point. The paradigm of self ID should be rejected, because this is the result it produces.

 

[Thermal]

If we were to modify the dictionary definition you posted earlier to reference race instead of sex, it would read as follows:

"an adult who lives and identifies as black though they may have been said to have a different race at birth"​

Ok, but we do acknowledge gender dysphoria as a recognizable condition. There's an area of the brain that corresponds with that specific ID. I don't know that one even exists for race? If we changed it to 'attack helicopter', we could also show that there is no part of the cortex that identifies as attack helicopter or not, regardless of birth... helicopterishness.

Dolezal started doing this in 2011 and kept going until she was credited with revitalizing her local NCAAP chapter in 2015.

Her commitment to transition was at least as strong as many of the transwomen we've discussed here, and that despite a near total lack of social affirmation, not to mention the various media outlets who have wantonly deadraced her

I get your point, but a few years posing as a chosen cultural makeup (she was very much an American black woman, or so she claimed) is still a few steps away from the globally observed phenomena of the gender switcheroo.

 

[Rolfe]

There's an area of the brain that corresponds with that specific ID.

No, there isn't. And what's more, the trans lobby really, really don't want that to be the case, and have even moved to block research into the area. Think about it. If there were such a thing as "true trans" (there isn't), and there was a test for it, then some people would fail that test. Possibly even them. Can't be having that.

 

[Rolfe]

More from the lads at the pee protest.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915021997051969865

As always, the man confuses acceptance with lack of challenge. It would take a brave woman to challenge that in the Ladies' loo. She'll just get the hell out ASAP. Maybe even make submissive eye contact.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ok, but we do acknowledge gender dysphoria as a recognizable condition. There's an area of the brain that corresponds with that specific ID.

Gender dysphoria is a real condition. I'm skeptical of any claims about correlation with brain activity, given the low quality of many such studies, but that seems somewhat beside the point, as the existence of the condition isn't contingent upon that.

But gender dysphoria isn't a required part of trans identity. You don't need to have gender dysphoria to be trans. So even if there were an objective test to determine gender dysphoria, that would not create an objective test to determine trans identity.

 

[d4m10n]

Ok, but we do acknowledge gender dysphoria as a recognizable condition.

About to be ninja'd by Zig on this, so I'll leave it alone.

There's an area of the brain that corresponds with that specific ID.

I've rather little doubt—as a fully paid-up metaphysical materialist—that Dolezal's longstanding and profound desire to be seen as another race exists in her brain and will cease to exist when it does.

 

[Elaedith]

Despite which, transracialism is now advocated among academics. Seeing as race is a fuzzy concept, quite unlike sex, it's not as scientifically absurd as is trans sexuality. (Although I think it's asinine.)
Gender and Race in an Age of Unsettled Identities

So is transableism, as previously discussed.

 

[d4m10n]

Thread 'Body Dysmorphia (BBC Horizon)'

Nov 29, 2022

Came across this old episode of BBC Horizon today, full video available at the Internet Archive. The episode summary and transcript are available here and the basic gist is that a documentary crew followed around an American woman named Corinne and a middle-aged psychotherapist named Gregg as they sought out a surgical solution to the problem of having two healthy legs.

The consulting psychiatrist is a fellow named Russell Reid^WP, who would go on to get in a spot of bother with the General Medical Council. Reid is careful to point out that these patients are...

• d4m10n
• Replies: 71
• Forum: Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

 

[Thermal]

Let's go to the full quote, shall we?

Yes, let's. I've been waiting to see if you were going to catch it during the edit window.

Why is it a lie? According to self ID, if I say I'm a woman, then I'm a woman. The declaration made it so. There is no such thing as lying about that. For it to be a lie, you would need some sort of test that didn't rely on my testimony that could determine my gender. And self ID does not allow for any other test. Lying about that is literally impossible.

It's not actually the previous sentence where I used "self ID", it's several sentences earlier,

No it goddamed right well isn't. I literally hilited it for you. It's in the previous sentence, exactly where I said it was. Yet you baldly deny this, when it's literally right in front of your face.

This is not the first, second or third time I've brought this up. Do you understand that it's not really possible to have a discussion when you do this?

It is impossible to lie about your gender identity if your statement of your gender identity is what defines your gender identity. See how that logically works?

No, because that is not remotely how I or anyone else (save the anti-transers with your fast and loose alternate vocabulary) understand self ID being used.

 

[Thermal]

About to be ninja'd by Zig on this, so I'll leave it alone.

We were talking about trans gender compared with trans racial. Zig did respond, but only to keywords, not content. Comparing with trans racialism was ignored to freewheel off to some other buzzword response. So the floor is still yours if we were going anywhere in a straight line.

I've rather little doubt—as a fully paid-up metaphysical materialist—that Dolezal's longstanding and profound desire to be seen as another race exists in her brain and will cease to exist when it does.

I'm not seeing any profound desire. I'm seeing a half assed ruse and an even halfer assed cover. Nothing about her couple year cosplay of deceit seems any more profound than that.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, because that is not remotely how I or anyone else (save the anti-transers with your fast and loose alternate vocabulary) understand self ID being used.

Yes it is. Seriously, EVERYONE here except you and maybe Mycroft (because he's clueless about this topic) knows that the term "self ID" refers to the policy of segregating based on self-declared gender identity and nothing else. That isn't my invention, that's standard terminology on the topic. And the vocabulary wasn't invented by the gender critical side, it comes from the trans advocates themselves. Because THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT. Even Wikipedia understands this.

It's understandable if you didn't know this. But I have now explained it to you. So stop pretending I meant something other than I clearly meant, and address the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ substance for once.

 

[Thermal]

Yes it is. Seriously, EVERYONE here except you and maybe Mycroft (because he's clueless about this topic) knows that the term "self ID" refers to the policy of segregating based on self-declared gender identity and nothing else. That isn't my invention, that's standard terminology on the topic. And the vocabulary wasn't invented by the gender critical side, it comes from the trans advocates themselves. Because THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT. Even Wikipedia understands this.

It's understandable if you didn't know this. But I have now explained it to you. So stop pretending I meant something other than I clearly meant, and address the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ substance for once.

No. I am not the "trans advocate side" and I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about their screwball terminology. Just like half the posters here ignore widely accepted terms and make up their own, I am not constrained by the ideas of extremists, assuming you are even accurate about that. Since you just snipped yet another flub out of your sight without acknowledging it, after spending several posts arguing in favor of your alternate reality, I can't assume that good faith is high on your list right now.

Eta: and had you read your own goddamned link, NO, self ID is not something you just make up, 'might be true, maybe not, whatever'. It's your own sense of your gender ID. And if you recall, that's where we started this: you can absolutely LIE about your sense of your own gender.

Gender identity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The main concept of self ID used here is that your personal gender evaluation is sufficient (doesn't need a GRC or medical diagnosis). You're torquing that over to "whatever you say goes", which is clearly a maligning of the meaning.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm not seeing any profound desire.

Possibly because you aren't looking? She started her transition from basic white girl to something more diverse in 2011 and to judge by her Instagram she hasn't given up yet. I'm betting she spends a small fortune on hair care alone.

 

[smartcooky]

I see that Jonathan "wax my balls" Yaniv who became Jessica, who perved on little girls in the female toilets of a ferry and tried to organise trans-only, no parents, topless swimming evenings for children, has reinvented himself again as "Jessica Simpson", an indigenous Métis (first nations Canadian) woman and academic. This bio page is a laugh a minute.


He is also claiming to have been born a Christian and never to have been Jewish. Despite having claimed antisemitism against him during the wax-my-balls trials, and a hospital report online that confirms he has been genotyped as being of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.

There is a twitter thread about it all.

All sorts of other fun details coming out in a current thread, which he joined in himself using his original @trustednerd account, pretending to be someone who knew about his proclivities and was critical of him.

Twenty years ago someone exhibiting such severe delusional mental illness would have been dealt with as a mental case, restrained from his worst excesses, and hopefully helped. But now, all these lunatics have to do is play the "I'm a woman" card and they get away with anything.

Yes indeed!!

(NOTE: Some of the posters in this thread are apparently unable to detect that these are all biological males).

 

[Ziggurat]

No. I am not the "trans advocate side" and I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about their screwball terminology.

We do not have different terminology to describe the policy that they want. We ONLY have their terminology. So unless you want to describe that policy in detail every single time (which is stupid and unnecessary), then we are going to use their terminology to describe their preferred policy. Their policy is screwball, but in this case, the terminology to describe it is surprisingly fitting. There is no sensible reason to object to using their terminology to describe their policy.

Eta: and had you read your own goddamned link, NO, self ID is not something you just make up, 'might be true, maybe not, whatever'. It's your own sense of your gender ID.

And how does the world know what your own sense is? By your declaration, AND NOTHING ELSE. In actual practice, that's what it becomes. The idea that you can access someone's sense of themselves by any other means is delusional. You're trying to draw a distinction that no one can actually make in the real world.

 

[Thermal]

Possibly because you aren't looking? She started her transition from basic white girl to something more diverse in 2011 and to judge by her Instagram she hasn't given up yet. I'm betting she spends a small fortune on hair care alone.

Cosplay costs a bunch, yes. So does going to the salon to get a perm and your hair colored, just like millions of non-trans-racial women do.

Still, she doesn't appear to be doing anything more than emulating a culture she thinks is cool. On her wiki page, she even says she does not identify as African American. Just as 'black'. While I can't read her mind, I can read her words and actions, and none of them are persuasive.

 

[Thermal]

The idea that you can access someone's sense of themselves by any other means is delusional. You're trying to draw a distinction that no one can actually make in the real world.

Jesus christ dude, you almost have it. You're like thiiiiiiiis close.

You are trying to get an outside, objective standard. There really can't be one, as it's an internal sense. That's what self ID means. Only you can really know. But you can absolutely misrepresent that self ID for nefarious purposes. That's where you are dropping the ball, and insisting that it is reeeeeaaally a self assertion, which is different. I can self assert that I am a ferret, but that's a lie. I do not identify as a ferret. SO I CANNOT SELF ID AS A FERRET WITHOUT LYING.

 

[smartcooky]

Which is why I can't figure out why smartcooky finds making that distinction to be 'dead wrong'.

It's possible he was just babbling, but I'll let him clarify.

The following is not personalization - you have asked me to clarify, so I owe it to you to do so.

"That distinction" is not what I was talking about.

I was talking about your emotional outburst over your seeming frustration that screaming things that others ( as well as repeating the same false narratives, deliberately misquoting other posters, calling them liars, and stupid, making up your own definitions, and making up childish, insulting names for them and their worldview) is not gaining any traction here. When you trivialize, belittle and mock the concerns of others in this thread, those others are going to either ignore you or treat your posts with contempt.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to do, and be, better.

 

[Thermal]

The following is not personalization - you have asked me to clarify, so I owe it to you to do so.

Understood.

"That distinction" is not what I was talking about.

In fact it was. Here are your very words:

It doesn't matter how many times you "scream this one" - so long as "this one" continues to be dead wrong, no-one is going to listen

You even put "this one" in scare quotes ("this one" being my harping that we need to clarify the distinction between sex and gender). You don't have the wiggle room to rewrite history, here.

I was talking about your emotional outburst over your seeming frustration that screaming things

No. "Screaming from the rooftops" is an expression that means adamantly and clearly repeating. You'll note that in my reply to d4m10n, there was no hostility at all. It was as casual as a Jersey boy can be. If you want to see an emotional outburst sometime, I'll show you. It's a bit more than the milquetoast crap we've been posting here.

that others ( as well as repeating the same false narratives, deliberately misquoting other posters, calling them liars, and stupid, and making up childish, insulting names for them and the worldview) is not gaining any traction here. When you trivialize, belittle and mock the concerns of others in this thread, those others are going to either ignore you or treat your posts with contempt. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to do, and be, better.

You might want to consider how black that kettle is, pot. You have been downright nasty, mocking, dismissive, condescending, rude and insulting. By contrast, I call people liars when they blatantly lie.

And before you say it, no, I don't generally report posts. When a discussion gets heated, stuff gets said heatedly. It's not important to call for help from the mods; they got enough to do, and I don't need help.

If you don't like taking it, maybe don't dish it out?

 

[Ziggurat]

Jesus christ dude, you almost have it. You're like thiiiiiiiis close.

You are trying to get an outside, objective standard. There really can't be one, as it's an internal sense.

I know there can't be one, I have never disagreed about that. Which means that allowing access on the basis of self ID is the SAME THING as allowing all males access. You say they have to lie, you say they are lying, but that's a pointless assertion if there is no test to determine that, which you agree that there isn't. Functionally speaking, what does it even mean to say that they are lying if there is zero way to determine if they are lying? Functionally speaking, it works as if lying is impossible, and the mere declaration makes it so. Your position amounts to a semantic squabble about what it means to lie, but at the end of the day it makes no difference. When you allow self ID, you eliminate sex segregation. That's the important point, and I'm not seeing you actually contest that.

I can self assert that I am a ferret, but that's a lie. I do not identify as a ferret. SO I CANNOT SELF ID AS A FERRET WITHOUT LYING.

If you assert that you are a ferret, I know it's a lie because there is an objective standard for determining if you are actually a ferret, and I can tell that you're not actually a ferret.

But that's not even the correct parallel, as your own citation to the definition of a woman indicates. If you were to identify as someone who wants to be thought of as a ferret, you MIGHT be telling the truth. But here's the kicker: it wouldn't matter. No one cares if you want to be thought of as a ferret or not, because everyone can tell you're not a ferret, and no one is actually going to treat you like you're a ferret, regardless of your state of mind. Because even if you really want people to think of you as a ferret, you're not. Even the furries don't actually treat each other as if they were real animals.