Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[theprestige]

In this context, just being allowed to pee where it feels right.

Nobody is allowed to pee where it feels right. Everybody is expected - and to some extent required by law - to pee either in the privacy of their own home, or in certain designated spaces.

You can't keep relying on equivocating between female and woman as long as our laws are muddy on it. In my state, woman is broadly interpreted as a gender expression (most states agree). That's the beginning of any meaningful resolution: clear up the definitions.

You misunderstand. I don't equivocate between female and woman. I use the term woman to mean an adult human female. Just because the laws are muddy and you're confused doesn't mean I am either of those things.

I might, in certain contexts, refer to the social construct of womanhood, as in my recent reply to Mycroft. But I'm confident that you can easily tell what I mean by woman, from the context.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't believe that is as broadly true as you believe it is; it's not particularly difficult to find a counterexample, that is, someone worried about being judged by other bathroom patrons. It seems to me that you have a tendency to paint every trans woman as if they are the most strident activist from that silly protest the other day.

The ones I know personally, or have encountered in passing, are far closer to the activist side of the spectrum.

 

[d4m10n]

Nobody is allowed to pee where it feels right.

Possibly the greatest thing about being under five years old as a male was being allowed to mark the trees and bushes at will.

As adults, we tend to face social sanctions for going with the flow.

 

[Thermal]

Nobody is allowed to pee where it feels right. Everybody is expected - and to some extent required by law - to pee either in the privacy of their own home, or in certain designated spaces.

The designation, and what exactly it refers to, is the whole ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ball of wax here, literally starting from the title of the thread.

You misunderstand. I don't equivocate between female and woman. I use the term woman to mean an adult human female. Just because the laws are muddy and you're confused doesn't mean I am either of those things.

I might, in certain contexts, refer to the social construct of womanhood, as in my recent reply to Mycroft. But I'm confident that you can easily tell what I mean by woman, from the context.

"I use unique definitions, restricted and removed from the wider usage in my country, but I rely on you to re-translate my usage when I am willy nilly self contradictory" is a whole lot less straightforward than you imagine.

 

[Mycroft]

A subset of "men" are still "men". That makes them biologically male

I'm not a transwoman, you're not a transwoman, so even if we use your definition, the word "men" still includes people who are not transwomen.

For accuracy, you should say transwoman when you mean transwomen and save "men" for when you mean to include all men.

 

[Mycroft]

If he said he's a woman, and you are somewhere that uses self ID, then you get labelled a transphobe and possibly kicked out yourself.

Really?! Where exactly would this happen?

 

[Darat]

One point that I've not seen picked up in the press and other media is that the judgement uses the pronoun "she" for a trans woman.

Do GRC have any legal meaning any longer in the UK?

 

[Thermal]

Possibly the greatest thing about being under five years old as a male was being allowed to mark the trees and bushes at will.

As adults, we tend to face social sanctions for going with the flow.

*construction workers and other drunks shuffle feet awkwardly*

 

[Mycroft]

And yet, human beings know who is male and who is female to an extremely high degree of accuracy just fine without seeing any genitals at all.

My point exactly. Nobody measures pelvic bones, nobody checks DNA, and nobody looks at genitalia without invitation.

 

[Mycroft]

And what if they are like Bryson? What should we do with him? You never answered my question about whether Bryson should be allowed into the women's bathroom.

This isn't a hypothetical. And the dishonest argument here is you avoiding it.

I answered your question. I said, "I don't know".

You never answered mine. Should all trans-people be assumed to be just as wicked as Bryson?

 

[Mycroft]

Are you going to gaslight me some more by denying the existence of men's/women's clothing?

Or do one better, simultaneously deny they exist while touting how women's clothing are cut differently?

That kind of manure doesn't advance the argument.

 

[Thermal]

One point that I've not seen picked up in the press and other media is that the judgement uses the pronoun "she" for a trans woman.

They were pretty clear that they were not going to define the terms they were using/relying on/ literally ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ defining the interpretation of, right at the beginning of the ruling. I thought it was one of those quaint British things.

 

[Rolfe]

Are you going to gaslight me some more by denying the existence of men's/women's clothing?

Or do one better, simultaneously deny they exist while touting how women's clothing are cut differently?

That kind of manure doesn't advance the argument.

I'm sitting here in jeans, t-shirt and a hoodie. It's my normal dress. The jeans are women's because I need that for fit. The t-shirt and hoodie aren't anything in particular. What do you even mean by "women's clothing"?

I was just so gobsmacked by your assertion that transwomen may be distinguished by "wearing women's clothing" that the headbanging smilie seemed the only response I could muster at the time. But I did answer in more detail a little later.

I know a guy (science fiction conventions) who wears dresses. Understated pastel flowery prints, quite simple cut, plain bodice and slightly gathered skirts. He must have them made to measure (or perhaps he's really good with a sewing machine) because there isn't a female person on the planet they would fit. Other than the dresses he seems to present masculine, to me. Short masculine haircut, no makeup, no jewellery.

Is he wearing women's clothes, or not?

 

[Mycroft]

Puberty is a normal, natural process that humans are biologically programmed for. Transitioning is not, its an entirely artificial process that does real, irreversible medical harm.

If you delay puberty until adulthood you can change your mind with few consequences. If you force a person to go through puberty when they prefer to transition, you pretty much guarantee a less than optimal result.

80% of children grow out of the desire to change their gender. If all of them are encouraged to, and do transition, for four out of every five, its an irreversible mistake.

Cite?

Ask yourself this... if less than 1% of the population are transgender, how is it that whole peer-groups are transitioning... and why are there suddenly far more girls transitioning than boys, when just a few years ago, its was the other way around.

I call BS. I don't think this is true.

Also, the numbers are collapsing. Gen Z numbers are falling off a cliff, and Gen α don't want a bar of it.

Then the issue is resolving itself, isn't it?

 

[Mycroft]

I know a guy (science fiction conventions) who wears dresses. Understated pastel flowery prints, quite simple cut, plain bodice and slightly gathered skirts. He must have them made to measure (or perhaps he's really good with a sewing machine) because there isn't a female person on the planet they would fit. Other than the dresses he seems to present masculine, to me. Short masculine haircut, no makeup, no jewellery.

Is he wearing women's clothes, or not?

I don't know anything about this person, but I do know their existence doesn't make it impossible (or even hard) for transwomen to get women's clothes that fit them.

Women come in a lot of different body types and sizes.

What exactly are you arguing here?

 

[Rolfe]

That the entire concept of "women's clothes" is meaningless in the context you were using it.

 

[Mycroft]

A sizeable number of people think that "trans woman" means a female who identifies as male. Another sizeable number of people think that "trans woman" solely means someone who has had surgery to remove some or all of their male genitalia - despite the fact that upwards of 80% of trans-identifying males never have any surgery or take cross-sex hormones. I am not suggesting that the women you speak to are labouring under either of those misapprehensions or any others, but it's important that any surveys, formal or informal, which are presented in this thread as support for the idea that women don't care if males are in single-sex spaces take into account that terminology may mean different things to different people.

The women I've spoken to are not confused by these points. I made sure of it.

In any case, the women to whom you speak cannot consent to males in female single-sex spaces on behalf of other women. They can only consent to it on their own behalf.

If I had the power to exclude people I don't like from spaces I use, I might abuse that power too.

The issue of Muslim and Jewish women who are not permitted by their religion to be unclothed in spaces where men are, such as toilets and changing rooms, is still being ignored by the men's rights supporters in this thread, which is disappointing.

Are you religious?

 

[d4m10n]

I call BS. I don't think this is true.

If you're calling ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ on the "suddenly far more girls" claim you might want to check out the Cass Report thread.

 

[Rolfe]

It's wearing debating this with people who aren't up to speed on even the basic facts of the debate.

And who don't even know what sex the person they're engaging with is, even when they've made it clear in numerous posts and even have it in their freaking custom title to avoid doubt. (Yes, I know that was @acbytesla, but there's a pattern here.)

 

[Mycroft]

My girl was preyed on by trans paedo - ‘woman’ ruling is breath of fresh air

THE mum of a schoolgirl preyed on by a notorious trans paedo in a supermarket loo has hailed the Supreme Court ruling on women as a “breath of fresh air”. Her daughter was only ten when she was pus…

www.thescottishsun.co.uk

That perp has been in prison for a couple years now, haven't they?

Hospital told police patient was not raped because alleged attacker was transgender

Assault was confirmed through CCTV and witnesses despite previous denials, Lords told, as debate on single-sex wards policy continues

www.telegraph.co.uk

That's probably going to be the dumbest thing I see today. Any fool knows anyone can rape anyone else, and gender identity has nothing to do with it.

I hope the person responsible at that hospital gets exposed publicly.