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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Thermal said:
I agree, oblique as I may have been throughout the thread, which is why I dislike self ID and favor clarifying the sex/gender line ASAP
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The sex/gender line is extremely clear. That's why we're able to prohibit discrimination based on gender expression in housing and employment, while upholding sex segregation in sports, prisons, and bathrooms.
 
theprestige said:
The sex/gender line is extremely clear. That's why we're able to prohibit discrimination based on gender expression in housing and employment, while upholding sex segregation in sports, prisons, and bathrooms.
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We don't have such clarity. That's why we have so many stories about transwomen in women's prisons, and Lia Thomas, and transwomen walking into women's bathrooms coast to coast with protection of law.

Seriously, you missed all that?
 
Thermal said:
I get that. I think you know where I am ultimately coming from here: I want everyone to be accommodated, from women to transwomen to everyone else. But it's a conflict of comforts and rights. Transwomen can come in the men's room, that's fine. But many will say it feels horrible to them, feeling like a woman but having all these men staring at them, or much worse. So is there any issue with them coming in the ladies room, as you and others say they have been doing for generations? I think it makes sense: yeah, do either. But the pushback ITT is to say no way Jose, we don't want the weirdos in here anymore (with some fig leaves).
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Okay, let's back this trolley up.

What happened for generations has changed recently. That's the problem. We were okay with how it used to be; what we have been fighting the past few years isn't that.

In the past, there were a few transsexual males that occasionally showed up in female restrooms, and pretty much never in female showers or spas or changing rooms. At the time, being trassexual was gatekept - getting the appropriate documents to recognize the legal fiction needed a psychiatric diagnosis, several years of therapy, and a period of time "living as" the target sex. We females *trusted* that the doctors and the legislators were looking out for us, and we *trusted* that any males who went through that were going through some serious ◊◊◊◊. And - the important part - we knew at the time that we had the right of use in those spaces, and that any males were their at our discretion. We knew that if we were uncomfortable about it, we had the right and the authority to ask them to leave and they would. And if they didn't we could call the management or the police, and they would be removed for us. It was a female space, where we sometimes made a case-by-case exception for a very few males, and those males were doing their absolute level best to NOT make us feel uncomfortable.

That was the historical situation.

Within the past 20 years, there's been a shift. There's been a clear and intentional push to get rid of any gatekeeping - no diagnosis required, no counseling, no waiting limit. The push has been to "be kind" to transgender identified people and let them get legal recognition, medical treatment, and access to female-specific spaces as quickly as possible. And we've ended up with a fair number of males who have gotten demanding about it. They demand to use female spaces, they insist it's their right by law (and in some places it is, like NJ). They get extremely pushy and mean about it. And if they're denied, they threaten us, they tell us to suck their ladydicks, they threaten to rape us, or to punch us, or to decapitate or kill us, they call us witches and say we should bring back witch burning. They sell merchandise advocating for the death or injury of females who don't submit to their demands.

This is not at all the same as the tacit agreement we previously had in place.
Thermal said:
So whether you mean it or not, and I'm confident you don't, you are allying with the intolerant side. Surely you can see how that sits to an outside observer? These guys want to object so mightily when it is pointed out that they are being bigots... while spouting intolerant bigotry.
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Intolerant bigotry that... males remain male no matter what they wear, that over 80% of transgender identified males still have their wedding tackle, that transgender identified males retain a male pattern of criminality and sexual offending even after surgical and hormonal transition, and that females generally don't want males around when we're naked or vulnerable - regardless of how they dress?

Honestly, the most egregious slurs in here have come from you. I get that you're putting words into other people's mouths, but still - you're the one using such terms.
 
d4m10n said:
I think it's a fair question to ask anyone who wants to substitute sex-segregation with segregation by self-identification why it would be okay to ask cisgender men to leave the ladies room, and I've seen more than one interlocutor die of rhetorical seppuku making the valiant but doomed attempt to formulate an answer which tallies with their own worldview.
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That's pretty close to the crux of the Supreme Court judgement. It is absolutely not OK to allow one group of men access to women's spaces and exclude another. That is definitely discriminatory. This is particularly underlined by the fact that in law there is no criterion which a man must fulfill in order to be considered to be a transwoman. No surgery, no other body modifications (like shaving!) and no prescribed form of dress. It's entirely his declaration. Therefore the distinction is not one that it is practically possible to make in any case.

If it says "Ladies" or "Women" of "W" or "F" on the door, or there is some sort of pictogram that is intended to indicate this is the female space, then you have to exclude all males, or else remove the sign from the door and let absolutely anyone in. There is no middle ground.

And yes, I've seen the cartoons of the guy in the kilt and the woman in jeans looking at the signs on the doors with great puzzlement. They've been around a long time. In Scotland you can buy a mug or a teatowel with such a cartoon. But we all still know who's meant to go where.
 
Thermal said:
We don't have such clarity. That's why we have so many stories about transwomen in women's prisons, and Lia Thomas, and transwomen walking into women's bathrooms coast to coast with protection of law.

Seriously, you missed all that?
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We do have such clarity though. Isn't it great?
 
Thermal said:
Yet again, my state and others have come to a different legal conclusion. Your continued ignoring of this changes nothing.
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You're right - your state's legislators came to a conclusion that grants some males a special right to override female boundaries. They didn't consult females about this, they just decided that the desires of some males were more important than the comfort, dignity, and safety of females. But you know, you haven't heard of any problems. Let's just ignore that you really don't hear much about females self-excluding from female facilities, or avoiding drinking liquids so they won't have to go. You won't hear about females who feel deeply uncomfortable having a strange male in there with them but are legally disallowed from saying anything about it.
 
Thermal said:
When your intolerance is pointed out, you don't get to grab the fig leaf of womens rights versus mens rights. This issue doesn't even effect over 99% of men at all. Its a battle between 51% of the population against a half percent.
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You said the quiet part out loud. It's a battle between the 51% of the population that is female, and the 0.5% of the population that are males who demand they have a special right to override female boundaries.
 
Thermal said:
We don't have such clarity. That's why we have so many stories about transwomen in women's prisons, and Lia Thomas, and transwomen walking into women's bathrooms coast to coast with protection of law.
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There are always some people who will do their best to ignore clear distinctions, or try to obfuscate them, or both.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Okay, let's back this trolley up.

What happened for generations has changed recently. That's the problem. We were okay with how it used to be; what we have been fighting the past few years isn't that.

In the past, there were a few transsexual males that occasionally showed up in female restrooms, and pretty much never in female showers or spas or changing rooms. At the time, being trassexual was gatekept - getting the appropriate documents to recognize the legal fiction needed a psychiatric diagnosis, several years of therapy, and a period of time "living as" the target sex. We females *trusted* that the doctors and the legislators were looking out for us, and we *trusted* that any males who went through that were going through some serious ◊◊◊◊. And - the important part - we knew at the time that we had the right of use in those spaces, and that any males were their at our discretion. We knew that if we were uncomfortable about it, we had the right and the authority to ask them to leave and they would. And if they didn't we could call the management or the police, and they would be removed for us. It was a female space, where we sometimes made a case-by-case exception for a very few males, and those males were doing their absolute level best to NOT make us feel uncomfortable.

That was the historical situation.
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Honestly, at least half that is in your head, and of course the heads of some others. I doubt very seriously you had any sort of legal right to do any of that.
Emily's Cat said:
Within the past 20 years, there's been a shift. There's been a clear and intentional push to get rid of any gatekeeping - no diagnosis required, no counseling, no waiting limit. The push has been to "be kind" to transgender identified people and let them get legal recognition, medical treatment, and access to female-specific spaces as quickly as possible. And we've ended up with a fair number of males who have gotten demanding about it. They demand to use female spaces, they insist it's their right by law (and in some places it is, like NJ). They get extremely pushy and mean about it. And if they're denied, they threaten us, they tell us to suck their ladydicks, they threaten to rape us, or to punch us, or to decapitate or kill us, they call us witches and say we should bring back witch burning. They sell merchandise advocating for the death or injury of females who don't submit to their demands.

This is not at all the same as the tacit agreement we previously had in place.
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Think about what you just said. You said "they used to know their place, now they are getting uppity".

You can't say ◊◊◊◊ like "trans rights advocate groups threaten to rape and decapitate women". It's just ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ nuts.
Emily's Cat said:
Intolerant bigotry that... males remain male no matter what they wear, that over 80% of transgender identified males still have their wedding tackle, that transgender identified males retain a male pattern of criminality and sexual offending even after surgical and hormonal transition, and that females generally don't want males around when we're naked or vulnerable - regardless of how they dress?
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Youre not frequently naked or vulnerable in a public rest room, i would assume? If you were naked, I'd assume that the public nature of the rest room puts you in a better position to get help if needed.
Emily's Cat said:
Honestly, the most egregious slurs in here have come from you. I get that you're putting words into other people's mouths, but still - you're the one using such terms
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Ya I'm unpleasant when the little guy is getting spit on. No, you are not the little guy in this gig.
 
Thermal said:
They only have the 'right' if they selfID as women, which basically means the other 99.5% would have to lie. Not much different from where we are right now.
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It's magic words! All they have to do is say magic words! Nothing else, nothing at all.

Nice males aren't really an issue here. But give this some serious thought, Thermal - for those males that you damned well know don't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ about female boundaries except to the extent that it places them in legal jeopardy... if all they had to do was say "Oh, I'm trans" and they were then magically allowed into the female showers... do you think they would refrain from doing so on the basis that it's a lie?
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's magic words! All they have to do is say magic words! Nothing else, nothing at all.

Nice males aren't really an issue here. But give this some serious thought, Thermal - for those males that you damned well know don't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ about female boundaries except to the extent that it places them in legal jeopardy... if all they had to do was say "Oh, I'm trans" and they were then magically allowed into the female showers... do you think they would refrain from doing so on the basis that it's a lie?
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They don't even have to say it. They just have to walk in, and nobody has any right to prevent them.
 
Emily's Cat said:
You said the quiet part out loud. It's a battle between the 51% of the population that is female, and the 0.5% of the population that are males who demand they have a special right to override female boundaries.
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No, they are asking to be treated just like other women who also identify as women. It's y'alls team that is nasty about it, rubbing it in their faces that they are males. They got enough problems without that extra gratuitous salt rubbed in the wounds.
 
Thermal said:
The issue is the Ladies Room Warriors wanting it to be criminalized should one of them tranny weirdos dare to set foot in the room they identify with.
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Please stop using demeaning terminologies and putting words in people's mouths that nobody has said.

The issue is females wanting to retain single-sex spaces where males are not allowed, irrespective of how those males feel inside their heads.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's magic words! All they have to do is say magic words! Nothing else, nothing at all.

Nice males aren't really an issue here. But give this some serious thought, Thermal - for those males that you damned well know don't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ about female boundaries except to the extent that it places them in legal jeopardy... if all they had to do was say "Oh, I'm trans" and they were then magically allowed into the female showers... do you think they would refrain from doing so on the basis that it's a lie?
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I don't have to think anything at all. I can just look at my wide open doors state, where schoolboys can self ID their way right into the girls showers.

It doesn't happen. People are better than you think. And this ain't exactly the first time we've discussed exactly this.
 
Thermal said:
Correct. If the women's reasoning is based on bigotry and/or discrimination, the reasoning can be ignored.
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So the feelings of a special set of males is paramount, and everyone must care about their feelings... but the feelings of females can totally just be ignored, because they're being bigoted against males? Are you ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ serious right now?
 
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