Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

Please don't misunderstand: that was directed to EC, because she stated her personal belief that it was not possible to defend herself against a man. That's a side quest for me, to get that idea out of her head. I've spent a lot of time being the dummy in our free self-defense classes for women, and I want to plant that seed whenever I can: You can win. Don't tell yourself you can't, and give up.

Dude, I fought off two would-be rapists. But they were opportunistic and weren't committed to harming me.

Would you consider an experiment in your self-defense class for females, where you are the dummy? Don't be a dummy. Be active, and your goal is to pin the females down and prevent them getting away from you. That's all - don't hurt them, don't do anything untoward. Just pin them down. Let them be as aggressive and violence as they can - and yes, that means you might get hurt.

How many of them do you think will be able to actually get away from you?

 

[Rolfe]

Agreed. There's a bit of an exception when the situations are collective nudity such as nude beaches or some mixed-sex sweat lodges. But in those situations there's pretty much no tolerance for sexual behavior of any sort. And in many of those situations there are a lot of people around who will enforce acceptable behavior.

I think that's covered by the part about being able to maintain our boundaries. For some women, a nude beach or a mixed-sex sweat lodge is somewhere she will choose to be, by her own free will. This is still consistent with her having boundaries, it's just that this situation is within her boundaries. It would be an entirely different matter if she was obliged to take part in something like that against her will.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No. I'm pointing out that the claim that it is not possible to not be overpowered is factually untrue, and not by noise range outlandish scenarios.

Is it possible for a welterweight to win against a heavyweight?

 

[Rolfe]

We seem to have returned to business as usual, a bit early for me on this joyous and momentous day. I know this is in bad taste, but right now, the taste of TRA tears is sweet.

Learning To Cope

We wouldn’t be Wings if we didn’t round off this evening with a representative selection of some of the more measured and thoughtful responses from transactivists across the UK to today…

wingsoverscotland.com

 

[Thermal]

I think this is wishful thinking on your part. I sincerely support your daughters fighting back... but if you think that your female children could put you in the ICU if you tried to immobilize them, you're wrong.

The difference is training, and I've spent time on the mat and with striking pads with them. See below.

When I was in college, there were a few areas of campus where sexual assaults and attempted rapes had happened more than once. Lots of trees, dark, not on a main walkway, etc. But also very popular areas for morning jogs, and a definite shortcut if you're coming back to the dorm from the other side of campus. Our brother floor set up a "walk home" program, so that any females taking night classes could arrange for one of them to meet them outside of class and walk them home. There were several very athletic, strong females who insisted they didn't need protection, they could take care of themselves. So some of the average sized males challenged them. The basic objective was that the males would grab and pin down the females one-on-one... and all the females had to do was get away. The males weren't trying to cause any injury or even pain, and the females were allowed to hit, kick, scratch as much as they wanted. And these weren't the big athletic males, they were entirely average sized engineering and math students.

Not a single female got away.

100%, I agree. If you have two trained, or in your case untrained people, the guy is at a massive advantage. Also recall your females were very likely hesitant to actually hurt the guys. It's human nature, especially when playing around. They are not going to literally gouge a guy's eyes out trying to make a point on the grass common. The guys, however could pin with just about combat force.

Recall that scrawny woman in Seattle. A little bit of training, and she could outgun a determined, real rapist. No pretending on the quad. She actually did it (as I'm confident my girls are trained enough to do).

I mean, look at her. I could probably break her arms like carrots sticks. But she was taught how to exploit weak spots, and to keep her head.

Violence of action can turn the tables on someone who isn't expecting it, and can definitely drive off an uncommitted opportunistic predator - same as having a locked door or a car alarm will drive off opportunistic uncommitted thieves. But violence of action can't overcome a significant physical difference when the opponent is intent on causing harm.

Again, from years sparring and working self defense classes, I beg to differ.

Coming from a different but related perspective, I once sparred with a teenager who I had like no joke 8 inches on and prob 70 lbs of muscle. I thought the match was going to be a joke. But that kid was well trained, and knew how to get inside and exploit his smaller size. He couldn't drop me, but at the same time, I couldn't stop him. He changed my thinking about how much advantage a smaller fighter can have if he is smart. Doubly so if you are not constrained by fighting clean. You don't need to outmuscle an attacker; you need to strike in weak spots, and mercilessly.

 

[Thermal]

Is it possible for a welterweight to win against a heavyweight?

Not most of the time, because they both know what they are doing. Roughly even skills, but uneven mass and reach, and the bigger guy will generally win.

Now drop Bruce Lee against any of your college engineer buddies that are a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier. Extreme example, but you get the idea.

 

[Hercules56]

There are certainly numerous accounts of it happening. How many do you want? What sort of "data" would satisfy you?

Let's start with 1.

 

[Rolfe]

Bathroom access.

That top one is a nasty, manipulative bitch. An out-and-out bully.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ok. Do their personal decisions dictate societal accommodations? Cuz those same people seem.pretty adamant that the trans people don't have that privilege. One way street, maybe?

No. This is wrong, Thermal. And at this point you ought to be able to understand it.

This is not about denying transpeople a privilege, because it has nothing at all to do with gender identity. It's about denying males the special privilege of overriding female boundaries on their say so.

It is not because they're transgender, it's because they're male.

 

[theprestige]

The difference is training, and I've spent time on the mat and with striking pads with them. See below.

100%, I agree. If you have two trained, or in your case untrained people, the guy is at a massive advantage. Also recall your females were very likely hesitant to actually hurt the guys. It's human nature, especially when playing around. They are not going to literally gouge a guy's eyes out trying to make a point on the grass common. The guys, however could pin with just about combat force.

Recall that scrawny woman in Seattle. A little bit of training, and she could outgun a determined, real rapist. No pretending on the quad. She actually did it (as I'm confident my girls are trained enough to do).

I mean, look at her. I could probably break her arms like carrots sticks. But she was taught how to exploit weak spots, and to keep her head.

Again, from years sparring and working self defense classes, I beg to differ.

Coming from a different but related perspective, I once sparred with a teenager who I had like no joke 8 inches on and prob 70 lbs of muscle. I thought the match was going to be a joke. But that kid was well trained, and knew how to get inside and exploit his smaller size. He couldn't drop me, but at the same time, I couldn't stop him. He changed my thinking about how much advantage a smaller fighter can have if he is smart. Doubly so if you are not constrained by fighting clean. You don't need to outmuscle an attacker; you need to strike in weak spots, and mercilessly.

Yes, yes, women should invest their time and energy in becoming mixed martial arts practicioners, because society doesn't owe them even as much as society owes men who want to be women no matter what.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not saying their concerns are totally unfounded. I'm saying that the recent "trans panic" is over the top and transphobia is the reason.

So it's not an unfounded concern to not want males in our single-sex spaces where we're naked or vulnerable... but we should somehow pretend that transgender identified males aren't males even though we ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ well know that they're males? Can you at least explain how you think your logic works?

 

[acbytesla]

That top one is a nasty, manipulative bitch. An out-and-out bully.

Rolfe, I never knew you to be so catty.

 

[Thermal]

Then why are you arguing so vehemently against all of the reasons that I've provided for why we desire and need male-free spaces?

I'm not. As I keep saying, the 'why' is often in conflict with what laws allow us to do.

I can desire and need all kinds of stuff, but if I can't put a reason down for society to accommodate them that complies with law, no one really gives a ◊◊◊◊, nor should they.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Look around. Dey dun been crossed.

Oh well, the fox got into the henhouse. Guess we'll just let the foxes have the hens then, nothing we can do about it!

 

[Thermal]

Dude, I fought off two would-be rapists. But they were opportunistic and weren't committed to harming me.

Would you consider an experiment in your self-defense class for females, where you are the dummy? Don't be a dummy. Be active, and your goal is to pin the females down and prevent them getting away from you. That's all - don't hurt them, don't do anything untoward. Just pin them down. Let them be as aggressive and violence as they can - and yes, that means you might get hurt.

How many of them do you think will be able to actually get away from you?

Zero. Because I'm not the biggest or the baddest, but I'm always the meanest and much better trained.

When I'm the dummy (which I always am in the courses), I don't just stand there. I resist, and realistically, so they learn what works and what doesn't.

Eta: I wear a cup and depending on what we are working on, specific protective padding. I don't wear chest or abdominal protection at all, and I let them hit me. You can swing a freaking baseball bat on a guys torso and he'll barely flinch, because it is a strong area. You need to target the weak spots that even guys don't think about protecting much

 

[Thermal]

Oh well, the fox got into the henhouse. Guess we'll just let the foxes have the hens then, nothing we can do about it!

No, I'm saying that we have to think about this not in terms of starting from scratch, but working within the existing mess.

 

[Thermal]

Yes, yes, women should invest their time and energy in becoming mixed martial arts practicioners, because society doesn't owe them even as much as society owes men who want to be women no matter what.

Why? The Seattle woman took an afternoon class, and despite being an absolute twig, held her own. It takes so pitifully little to exploit an advantage.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is what I think I wasn't as clear on earlier as I should have been. It is absolutely the victory that women think it is. Completely, totally, Waterloo-level victory.

The judges came out with some soothing words at the beginning, I think partly as a sop to the trans lobby, but quite legitimately to point out that in other areas, areas not covering single-sex provisions that are a proportional means to a legitimate aim, the protected category of gender reassignment still exists. Harrassment of and discrimination against trans-identified individuals remains unlawful. The judgement however makes it crystal clear that keeping trans-identified individuals out of the sex-segregated spaces that do not correspond to their biological sex is not discriminatory. That is the take-home message.

The judgement actually reads pretty much like the FWS submission to the court, now codified into law, with a liberal garnishing of reasons why the Scottish government and its supporters' submissions were "incoherent". I think stronger words than incoherent were used on occasion.

There will be no court cases to decide just how pretty a frock a trans-identified man has to wear to entitle him to go into the women's bathroom, or just how hirsute a trans-identified woman's beard has to be to entitle her to go into the men's. If it is proportionate to exclude men (or women) from a particular facility, then it is proportionate to exclude trans-identifying men (or women). It is now absolutely settled law, and trans advocates are just going to have to stop crying about it.

Will this ruling short-circuit some of the employment tribunals that have been going on? For example, will it basically toss out the Upton bit and give the female their job back, given that this ruling clarifies that Upton NEVER had a right to use the female changing rooms in the first place?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, many of you are. 6ou don't mean to be. But that is the nature of humanity. People are afraid of people that are different. And hating what is different is natural.

What specifically in my view or my posts is something that you consider hateful?

 

[Rolfe]

Will this ruling short-circuit some of the employment tribunals that have been going on? For example, will it basically toss out the Upton bit and give the female their job back, given that this ruling clarifies that Upton NEVER had a right to use the female changing rooms in the first place?

It would certainly seem that NHS Fife is toast now. However we really want a judgement on that, so if they try to settle now and back off, it may be difficult for the parties to know what to do.