Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

As to the idea that yes, a fighter at a disadvantage can out of desperation get a win... That's not good enough. There's a lot of risk involved, even in winning a fight. EC doesn't ever want to be in that position. "Don't lose hope, you always have a chance!" isn't helpful here.

Safety comes from having an overwhelming advantage. You're talking about mere chance of survival.

Disagreed in toto, but that is probably another topic. If the reliance on "women are utterly helpless" is dropped, so will my counterassertion that it is utterly untrue.

 

[theprestige]

@Myriad and @theprestige : you both may truly feel that this toxic, pointless thread is more important than a fellow forumite. While this might not be the ideal time and place, there surely isn't a wrong time, if you take my meaning.

Yet it speaks directly to EC's claim, that women are so functionally helpless and overwhelmed that the threat of being overpowered is literally absolute. When the very 'stats' brought up to prove the threat is real literally refute that. The Seattle woman wasn't the only one who fought back and escaped.

You're mansplaining desperate survival scenarios to someone who actually has to take them into account.

 

[Thermal]

You're mansplaining desperate survival scenarios to someone who actually has to take them into account.

No. I'm pointing out that the claim that it is not possible to not be overpowered is factually untrue, and not by noise range outlandish scenarios.

 

[d4m10n]

I asked earlier about these gang showering escapades that were asserted to be so everyday. Pretty sure everyone who answered said 'yeah we don't do so', or 'my gym has privacy stalls'.

Group showers seem to be something of a cultural atavism, at least where I live. Back when I was on swim team it was normalized, but now that my kids are swimmers the facility has privacy curtains. They didn't understand how anyone could've possibly made sport of pissing on a teammate who'd been foolish enough to close their eyes in exhaustion. That said, I doubt that all facilities have made this upgrade, our current aquatic center is particularly well-resourced.

No idea, but as I said, I acknowledge that female specific need for both privacy from the general public, and a maybe a little help from other women who might be more compassionate, having been there themselves.

I've been trying to come up with an analogy which works for males who've never experienced the vulnerability of being the "weaker sex," in the archaic parlance, so far to no avail. I don't think it's easy for people who've rarely been bullied to wrap their heads around what it feels like to live in fear of brute strength.

 

[theprestige]

Group showers seem to be something of a cultural atavism, at least where I live. Back when I was on swim team it was normalized, but now that my kids are swimmers the facility has privacy curtains. They didn't understand how anyone could've possibly made sport of pissing on a teammate who'd been foolish enough to close their eyes in exhaustion. That said, I doubt that all facilities have made this upgrade, our current aquatic center is particularly well-resourced.

I've been trying to come up with an analogy which works for males who've never experienced the vulnerability of being the "weaker sex," in the archaic parlance, so far to no avail. I don't think it's easy for people who've rarely been bullied to wrap their heads around what it feels like to live in fear of brute strength.

I still hold out hope that the human capacity for abstract reasoning and empathy will be enough to carry the argument.

 

[Thermal]

Group showers seem to be something of a cultural atavism, at least where I live. Back when I was on swim team it was normalized, but now that my kids are swimmers the facility has privacy curtains. They didn't understand how anyone could've possibly made sport of pissing on a teammate who'd been foolish enough to close their eyes in exhaustion. That said, I doubt that all facilities have made this upgrade, our current aquatic center is particularly well-resourced.

Agreed, and that's what I am literally asking about. Gang showers have seemed to largely gone the way of the dodo, AFAICT. and I'm asking if others are largely seeing something different, or is it just some bull ◊◊◊◊ rhetoric that functionally doesn't even exist anymore, or can be mitigated with some $2 curtains.

Eta: one of my kids swam competitively from grade school into college, and never experienced a gang shower at either home or away meets. Maybe the Brits still do? I dunno, I'm asking.

I've been trying to come up with an analogy which works for males who've never experienced the vulnerability of being the "weaker sex," in the archaic parlance, so far to no avail. I don't think it's easy for people who've rarely been bullied to wrap their heads around what it feels like to live in fear of brute strength.

No need. I, like many guys, am well acquainted with being outnumbered by larger guys. We all know what being radically outgunned is all about. Although I don't see how any of that follows from the part of the post you were quoting?

 

[Hercules56]

No. I'm pointing out that the claim that it is not possible to not be overpowered is factually untrue, and not by noise range outlandish scenarios.

The average woman is much smaller and has less muscle than the average man.

This is a fact. A fact that includes men who dress as women.

 

[d4m10n]

No need. I, like many guys, am well acquainted with being outnumbered by larger guys. We all know what being radically outgunned is all about. Although I don't see how any of that follows from the part of the post you were quoting?

I don't think the female need for "privacy from the general public" is predicated on precisely the same set of fears as what you describe here.

Try to imagine fearing something more intimately violative than a gang beatdown when only one well-built male walks into the room.

I still hold out hope that the human capacity for abstract reasoning and empathy will be enough to carry the argument.

Something something springs eternal.

 

[theprestige]

Disagreed in toto, but that is probably another topic. If the reliance on "women are utterly helpless" is dropped, so will my counterassertion that it is utterly untrue.

yeah, probably another topic.

The reality is that women want safe spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy, and comfort. The fact that current conventions on safe spaces for women have a chilling effect on opportunistic predation contributes to the comfort provided by such spaces. Whether or not a given woman has a chance of surviving a determined attack isn't really relevant to the conversation at all.

 

[Thermal]

yeah, probably another topic.

The reality is that women want safe spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy, and comfort. The fact that current conventions on safe spaces for women have a chilling effect on opportunistic predation contributes to the comfort provided by such spaces. Whether or not a given woman has a chance of surviving a determined attack isn't really relevant to the conversation at all.

Kinda sorta. I've lobbied for women to maintain a sex segregated space using almost the same words, modesty, privacy, and comfort. 'Dignity' is a bit problematic, but it's basically the same gig.

EC, however, fights hard for the fear of men justification. Her entire approach with her current line of Q&A with me hinges on it.

Again, there are different perspectives offered, and y'all keep jumping back and forth between being claiming to be united and having entirely different rationalizations.

Eta: Dignity, modesty, etc are basically a chivalrous approach, and although I'm a fan of chivalry, let's face it: it's sexist, relying entirely on women being weaker. Is that getting a little passé out here in the 21st century?

 

[d4m10n]

A few pages back Rolfe hypothesized that some women may well think to themselves if I let a man look at me in an intimate situation, this is a signal I'm sexually available to him, and I don't feel like we've really taken that on board when trying to process why modesty matters more to some people than others. I suspect that this reaction isn't entirely culturally conditioned, but can be dialed up or down based on whether you grew up seeing more bikinis or burqas.

 

[theprestige]

Kinda sorta. I've lobbied for women to maintain a sex segregated space using almost the same words, modesty, privacy, and comfort. 'Dignity' is a bit problematic, but it's basically the same gig.

EC, however, fights hard for the fear of men justification. Her entire approach with her current line of Q&A with me hinges on it.

Again, there are different perspectives offered, and y'all keep jumping back and forth between being claiming to be united and having entirely different rationalizations.

I think the fear of men that EC alludes to is justified. If nothing else, sports data tells us that men have an significant statistical advantage in any test of strength, speed, and endurance.

Responding with, "it's not that bad, you always have a chance" isn't really helpful. Women aren't looking for a chance to escape. They're looking for reasonable assurances that they won't be put in a position they need to escape from.

"You lost six teeth, one eye, and your cheekbone was shattered, but you managed to escape. See? There's always hope!"

"He broke your arm, but you managed to break free. See? There's always hope!"

"Good thing you got away and got help before you bled out from those stab wounds. See? There's always hope!"

Those aren't reassurances. They're jackassery.

 

[Thermal]

I think the fear of men that EC alludes to is justified. If nothing else, sports data tells us that men have an significant statistical advantage in any test of strength, speed, and endurance.

Responding with, "it's not that bad, you always have a chance" isn't really helpful. Women aren't looking for a chance to escape. They're looking for reasonable assurances that they won't be put in a position they need to escape from.

"You lost six teeth, one eye, and your cheekbone was shattered, but you managed to escape. See? There's always hope!"

"He broke your arm, but you managed to break free. See? There's always hope!"

"Good thing you got away and got help before you bled out from those stab wounds. See? There's always hope!"

Those aren't reassurances. They're jackassery.

Agreed. Good thing that wasn't presented in any way shape or form, then.

You don't have the global comprehension issues that are so widely claimed in this particular thread, brah.

Eta: responding with "you know, you could use a lever and an inclined plane to move that insurmountably heavy box" is not really the kind of jackassery you strawmanned

 

[Thermal]

A few pages back Rolfe hypothesized that some women may well think to themselves if I let a man look at me in an intimate situation, this is a signal I'm sexually available to him, and I don't feel like we've really taken that on board when trying to process why modesty matters more to some people than others. I suspect that this reaction isn't entirely culturally conditioned, but can be dialed up or down based on whether you grew up seeing more bikinis or burqas.

I'd agree, but I think that's an antiquated Victorian hang up and perspective, exactly what I was alluding to earlier

 

[Rolfe]

You, a man, have no idea how women think about this. It's a hard-wired instinct, not some prissy "ooh mum he saw my ankle" thing.

Women strongly desire to control who they have sex with. There are extremely good evolutionary reasons for this. Guarding oneself against being seen by strange men when in certain intimate situations is part and parcel of this. I'm trying to rationalise it to explain it, but it's not a rational decision. It's visceral.

 

[varwoche]

I'd agree, but I think that's an antiquated Victorian hang up and perspective, exactly what I was alluding to earlier

I suspect that millions of years of evolution has a whole lot to do with these self-protective instincts, more so than prudishness.

Ninja'ed!

 

[Thermal]

I suspect that millions of years of evolution has a whole lot to do with these self-protective instincts, more so than prudishness.

Ninja'ed!

I'd suspect that it's a measure of each. We don't go out to dinner au naturelle, either. We have a kind of broad sense of decorum and propriety. But is there a line after which we are just being needlessly uptight?

 

[smartcooky]

All right! I asked if there were stats, and smartcooky delivered the stats! Good job!

Soooooo... these are the statistics? Really? A dozen instances, spanning the globe? I note that a few are not even applicable: one is in a private home, one is a 9 yr old girl and a teenage girl in a hotel, one involves four women who got angry at another woman who was taking too long in the bathroom, a couple where it was not a bathroom attack, but an attack that ended up in a bathroom. But still, giving you a gold star and full credit for the whole dozen.

What was it you said earlier... a bathroom is just a room?

So your statistics on bathroom assaults are... a dozen, worldwide? Going back to .. ahem... 2019? Wow, that's dramatically less than I would have thought, and by orders of magnitude. Pretty much in the area of being struck by lightning? Lower, even?

Stop being a dick! These were not all there were on the web, they were just the ones on the first page, but you knew that didn't you? You also know that rape and sexual assault are hugely under-reported - so these will just be a drop in the ocean.

But of course, none of this will move the needle for you. I'm sure you will manage to come up with some dumb-as-◊◊◊◊ pretext to handwave or spin these away.

Yeah, looks like I was right... your post is fully of complete dumb****ery

Would you like to discuss this further, or is it time to change the subject or slink away? Because I think the term 'Reading Comprehension: FAIL' is gonna be coming up.

I have suffered no reading comprehension fail at all - you, on the other hand read with your eyes and mind closed and your ears plugged.

I fully understand where you are coming from. You are utterly dismissive of the fears and concerns of women. You would rather they just STFU. I'll bet you would love to go back to the time when women were silent, had no say and just kept the house clean and obeyed their men without question. Your posts in this thread absolutely reek of misogyny - you may not think they do, but they do.

 

[Thermal]

What was it you said earlier... a bathroom is just a room?

Ya what I was looking for were statistics, so we could look at it like big boys and girls.

Stop being a dick! These were not all there were on the web, they were just the ones on the first page, but you knew that didn't you? You also know that rape and sexual assault are hugely under-reported - so these will just be a drop in the ocean.

And utterly useless, in context.

I didn't even mention the funniest one: a transwoman in a men's room who asked another guy for a hummer, and was charged with sexual assault. I mean... this is what you come up with?

And misogyny... you are truly priceless.

 

[d4m10n]

I'd agree, but I think that's an antiquated Victorian hang up and perspective, exactly what I was alluding to earlier

Feels like appeal to modernity^WP from where I'm sitting.