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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

We're discussing trans rights in public policy. The discussion necessarily centers around the rights being demanded, not the reasonable accommodations society has already settled on.

You're kicking around every idea except the ones that actually matter:

What to do about the anti-social demands for male entitlement to override sex segregation whenever they want; and
Easy, and already dealt with. I don't care what extremists want. I care about what is safe, practical, reasonable, and legal. Extremists, by definition, do not share those concerns, so ◊◊◊◊ them.
What to do about the anti-science demands for irreversible trans-affirming medicine for minor children.
Again, easy. No minors being subjected to any such surgeries. I'd set the line for irreversible surgeries in their mid-twenties somewhere, when alolescence is complete and they are adults. We know enough about the brain and hormonal swings during adolescence to codify that in law, much like we have tobacco and alcohol restrictions on young adults.

Is that it, or were you just kidding and have many other problems with my positions that you forgot till just now?
 
Rest rooms are somewhat less optional. Fortunately, we have data on their use by transpeople, and lo and behold: crime did not increase at all.
Assuming this is true, I still can't condemn women for their concerns given the prevelance of sexual violence.
 
I am not, and have said so. Repeatedly. What I am trying to do is balance law with practicality. As I said... repeatedly... I want women to have safe spaces for their modesty, comfort, and privacy. But our courts have said with one voice that it violates our laws. So I am looking for a workaround. It doesn't take much mental horsepower to understand that.

That's exactly what segregationists used to say when justifying white-only spaces. Not your best argument.

Laws and civil rights principles. We have them. And not to keep sledgehammering this over your head, but I am not proposing a solution. I am still looking for the ideal that works better than the legally required inevitability.

In large places, a gender neutral area combined with individual privacy areas seems doable, much like the Portland school setup described above. But some women have pointed out that getting a little help from other women is a real thing in women's rest rooms. I asked my wife about that, and she concurred- especially when being 'dressed up', she might ask for help with zippers breaking and stuff, which as a guy, we don't deal with, so we overlook that sometimes.

And admittedly, as a guy, a lot of this stuff slips my mind. We don't generally get naked with the guys. We go into a rest room, do our business, wash out hands, and leave. It's a gender neutral experience, so we find it a little foreign to see someone we are not familiar with in the fest room. I've had women and trans people in rest rooms with me, and.. it just didn't register as much. Little odd, but a shoulder shrug, mostly.

So again, mostly for the benefit of you and cooky: I'm like 90% with you, but trying to torque out that last 10% fairly and staying within our discrimination laws. It's a tough needle to thread. I think the key is to make a hard line distinction between sex and gender. If they are the same, all is lost. Discriminating against gender is the same as discriminating against sex, and that's a no-go. If we legally acknowledge the difference, we have a loophole to maintain practical sex segregation. That keeps Lia Thomas as an average male swimmer, not a record holding female swimmer, and keeps women-only spaces sex segregated.

If you and the cooky and others don't get it this time, and continue with your dishonest reframing of my position, I give up with you. There's no intelligent wiggle room for you to claim you misunderstand.

Yet again, no. I think the resolution is going to be in there somewhere, but I am confident a resolution can be found that works.

One thing that might work is a female only space, and a gender neutral in place of a dedicated men's, because the men don't really care if a woman or transwoman or transman is in the restroom. But females do, just as a practical concern. Then we have to make that 'non-discriminatory', which is why we need to sharpen that sex/gender line.

I think a lot of men do care if women come into their spaces. I don't think you should be so cavalier in giving these up on behalf of the men who value them. Your opinion is not the only one that matters.

AND WILL YOU GIVE IT UP WITH THIS COMPARISON TO APARTHEID. THE COMPARISON IS ILLEGITIMATE AND FRANKLY INSULTING. WHITE PEOPLE, THE DOMINANT CLASS, WANTED TO EXCLUDE BLACK PEOPLE, THE INFERIOR CLASS, FROM THEIR SPACES. THAT IS NOWHERE CLOSE TO THE SITUATION WHERE WOMEN, THE (SADLY) OPPRESSED GROUP, WANT THEIR OWN SPACES FREE FROM THEIR OPPRESSORS.

I do not care what the laws in your country say. I am in the business of making sure that the laws in my country are not revised to disadvantage women even more than they have been already, and in repealing such laws as have been passed that do disadvantage us.

Another thing you might bear in mind is that wherever there is a female-only space, trans-identifying men will fight to get into it, even if there is a gender-neutral or even a transwomen-only space provided for them. Their compulsion is to possess everything that women possess, and leave no actual women-only space whatsoever. They are not interested in compromise, as has been shown time and time again. They will complain bitterly and go to court to gain access to any female-only space, deeming this to be discriminatory and transphobic.
 
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Does linking to the relevant Wikipedia page count as "being shown new evidence" or do I have to paste it all in here?

You don't have to do anything. What do you want to do?

I don't want to "prove you wrong," I want you to get up to speed on the basic facts of the case so as to avoid wasting everyone's time with bogus claims which we already covered in these threads several years ago, back when @LondonJohn was still participating.

It seems like you want to waste everyone's time with this ridiculous tease of yours. If you want to get me up to speed, do it.

Although my observation is nobody is talking about it anymore.
 
Oh for goodness sake, arguments comparing transwomen demands with gay rights and racial segregation are too ridiculous for words. They have been dismissed comprehensively in this very thread. Grow up those throwing out false analogies.
 
Assuming this is true, I still can't condemn women for their concerns given the prevelance of sexual violence.
I don't condemn them at all either. I also don't think a sign on an unlocked and unguarded door is much of a safety net against an actual violent criminal.
 
Assuming this is true, I still can't condemn women for their concerns given the prevelance of sexual violence.

It's not simply sexual violence that is the concern, it's the loss of modesty and dignity. Women (by this I mean large numbers of, possibly a majority of, not necessarily all) do not want to perform intimate tasks or undress in the presence of a man. We don't even want to do these things in the presence of men who are our friends and who don't pose the slightest risk of committing sexual violence against us. We also know that the very last men we want in our single-sex spaces are the ones who want to be there. Nice men do not want to be there.
 
We're discussing trans rights in public policy.
They shouldn't have any rights in the first place. That's the whole problem. Lecherous behaviour should be punished. Period. None of this, "I identify as a woman so I should have the right to expose my gasakus in the women's loo". The whole point of such discussions is not if transvestites can dress as they like. The question is whether or not they should be exempt from exiting laws.
 
I don't know how many times this is now that someone has parachuted into the thread to tell everyone that investing millions in ripping out existing facilities and rebuilding them into mixed-sex facilities is the answer to everything. And I don't know how many times it has been explained that this would result in women losing their communal single-sex facilities, which they value. Plus explanations of what we use these facilities for and why we value them. Plus statistics about the increase in assaults where mixed-sex facilities have been installed. Plus these millions that would need to be invested.

Sigh.

The stew was just to your liking, then someone stirred the pot.
 
I also don't think a sign on an unlocked and unguarded door is much of a safety net against an actual violent criminal.
It's not the sign, it's the knowledge that people (e.g. "Cubana Angel") can raise a ruckus with the facility staff and expect support when someone who looks like a man barges into one of the spaces reserved for females.

This has been explained over and over and over upthread.
 
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I don't condemn them at all either. I also don't think a sign on an unlocked and unguarded door is much of a safety net against an actual violent criminal.

How many times do we have to explain that, when men are not allowed in women's spaces, women are quite good at policing them. A man appears, he stands out as being where he shouldn't be, we ask him to leave or call the attendant to do so. If men are allowed in there, we lost that right. We can't challenge him. He can just hang around there until an opportunity presents itself.

Also, WE DON'T WANT MEN IN OUR INTIMATE SPACES, NOT EVEN NICE MEN, AND WE KNOW THAT MEN WHO WANT INTO OUR SPACES ARE BY DEFINITION NOT NICE MEN.
 
It seems like you want to waste everyone's time with this ridiculous tease of yours. If you want to get me up to speed, do it.
Only you can get you up to speed, and you already know how to do so.

ETA: Am I insane or is it basic courtesy to bring at least a wiki-level familiarly with the basic facts to an ongoing discussion in a forum dedicated to people who claim to extol the virtues of empiricism?
 
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Oh for goodness sake, arguments comparing transwomen demands with gay rights and racial segregation are too ridiculous for words. They have been dismissed comprehensively in this very thread. Grow up those throwing out false analogies.

Yeah, but who dismissed them?
 
I think a lot of men do care if women come into their spaces. I don't think you should be so cavalier in giving these up on behalf of the men who value them. Your opinion is not the only one that matters.
I have been in men's rooms my whole life, and used to frequent bars more than I should have. Each and every night, women would grow tired of waiting in a line at the ladies room, and jump into the men's. It's a pretty universal experience over here, not 'my opinion'. Guys don't care if it is neutral or men's only. It makes no difference to our usage.
AND WILL YOU GIVE IT UP WITH THIS COMPARISON TO APARTHEID. THE COMPARISON IS ILLEGITIMATE AND FRANKLY INSULTING. WHITE PEOPLE, THE DOMINANT CLASS, WANTED TO EXCLUDE BLACK PEOPLE, THE INFERIOR CLASS, FROM THEIR SPACES. THAT IS NOWHERE CLOSE TO THE SITUATION WHERE WOMEN, THE (SADLY) OPPRESSED GROUP, WANT THEIR OWN SPACES FREE FROM THEIR OPPRESSORS.
If you don't like that obvious parallel drawn, mebbe you shouldn't rely on it so much? And with how blatantly insulting you are being to me (foolishly asserting that I am a men's rights advocate being a recent one), you have no moral high ground there for indignation there, ducky.
I do not care what the laws in your country say.
Obviously. I do.
I am in the business of making sure that the laws in my country are not revised to disadvantage women even more than they have been already, and in repealing such laws as have been passed that do disadvantage us.

Another thing you might bear in mind is that wherever there is a female-only space, trans-identifying men will fight to get into it, even if there is a gender-neutral or even a transwomen-only space provided for them.
Which is why I am trying to close that door tight, within law, practicality, and reason.
Their compulsion is to possess everything that women possess, and leave no actual women-only space whatsoever. They are not interested in compromise, as has been shown time and time again. They will complain bitterly and go to court to gain access to any female-only space, deeming this to be discriminatory and transphobic.
See above. That's why I think we have to reframe it a little, to acknowledge the need for female privacy (as I think EC lobbied well), but without violating our own principles and laws.

What do you think about a gender neutral rest room, and a female only. Could that work, if we codified the gender/sex line? I think it could. Or is that too 'male centric', for whatever goddamned loopy reason you are concocting?
 

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