Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[theprestige]

It's a solution that works swimmingly for the majority. Now we recognize a minority that it doesn't work for.

Yeah, a minority of men who believe they should be entitled to override sex segregation any time they want, to the detriment of those who benefit from from it.

There's also a minority of men for whom our current laws about domestic violence and spousal abuse don't work. A minority of men who are not on board with the concept of marital rape.

Somehow it doesn't occur to me that these laws need some work, because they're a problem area for a minority of the population.

 

[Thermal]

Yeah, a minority of men who believe they should be entitled to override sex segregation any time they want, to the detriment of those who benefit from from it.

There's also a minority of men for whom our current laws about domestic violence and spousal abuse don't work. A minority of men who are not on board with the concept of marital rape.

Somehow it doesn't occur to me that these laws need some work, because they're a problem area for a minority of the population.

Equating trans folk with violent criminals is getting a bit on the nose.

 

[theprestige]

Equating trans folk with violent criminals is getting a bit on the nose.

I think the goal of overriding sex segregation by fiat self-ID is antisocial and misogynistic. I think that advocating irreversible trans affirming treatment on the basis of ideology over science is obscene. I have seen no evidence that overriding sex segregation by fiat self-ID benefits anyone at all - not women, not dysphorics - anyone besides predators and misogynists.

What concerns me is that too many people today don't think my equation is on the nose enough.

It's amazing to me that when confronted with the idea of men being entitled to override sex segregation whenever they want, you reflexively decide sex segregation must be the problem.

It never occurs to you that sex segregation is the solution to such men.

 

[Hercules56]

Because we understand that not everybody fits on the m/w binary anymore. It's a thing, and we are theoretically not big on '◊◊◊◊ off tranny' as policy....

Pretty much every person on this planet can be categorized as either male or female, from a purely biological perspective. Some people may be very very confused about who and what they are, but that doesn't mean that the rest of society has to cater to that confusion.

Just because I decide 3 years from now that I am a puppy doesnt mean I should be able to spend time at the animal shelter.

Just because I decide 6 years from now that I want to identify as a toddler, doesn't mean I should be able to enroll in kindergarten.

 

[Rolfe]

Do we think this guy is behaving in a way that will persuade women he's safe to accept into our spaces?
NSFW - bad language in linked video

https://twitter.com/x/status/1910370827553694045

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to add nsfw tags

 

[Thermal]

I think the goal of overriding sex segregation by fiat self-ID is antisocial and misogynistic. I think that advocating irreversible trans affirming treatment on the basis of ideology over science is obscene. I have seen no evidence that overriding sex segregation by fiat self-ID benefits anyone at all - not women, not dysphorics - anyone besides predators and misogynists.

What concerns me is that too many people today don't think my equation is on the nose enough.

It's amazing to me that when confronted with the idea of men being entitled to override sex segregation whenever they want, you reflexively decide sex segregation must be the problem.

It never occurs to you that sex segregation is the solution to such men.

Of course it occurs to me that it is *a* solution. It's just the douchiest, most intolerant one.

Look man, I'm trying really hard to be open minded and accepting of our esteemed half percent, here. I want them to feel.normal and respected for who they are, just like you and I take for granted.

The available data shows that the fear of tranny pervs and poser tranny pervs is not justified (UCLA study). Turns out, when you let those tranny freaks in... nothing bad happens. Crime does not go up (exactly zero increased incidences of violence in the UCLA paper). At that point, I have to wonder if it's not such a bad idea to just bag the sex segregation, as it seems to serve no purpose other than to disenfranchise a minority, that kind of has enough problems.

So. It's illegal to discriminate based on gender. The courts are pretty adamant about that. Serious question: why do you think the US government is set on that, but doesn't uphold sex segregated spaces?

It also occurs to me that if you 'couple' sex and gender, as you so steadfastly do, and acknowledge that we cannot discriminate based on gender, that the problem.resolves itself and we're all off to the potty of our choosing and Lia Thomas is showering with her teammates.

If you allow for the difference between sex and gender, as I do, there's still wiggle room to keep Lia Thomas out of the ladies showers.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yet transwomen wear women’s clothing. Are you denying that?

Some do, some don't. Which of them do you consider to be transwomen? If a male is wearing male cut clothing, can they still identify as a woman in your mind?

Theprestige dismissed wearing women’s clothing as “sexist nonsense”. Disagreeing that it is sexist nonsense, or at least pointing out that sexist or not our society has embraced our gender dimorphism, is not making any comment about the cut of anyone’s clothing,

Using clothing choice to dictate who is and is not a woman is sexist nonsense.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Neither is discriminating against transpeople.

Do you consider it discrimination to prohibit housing males in a female prison?

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's my point. Flashers are a real thing. If this creep wasn't in that spa, he would have flashed somewhere else. Hell, he already had.

And I know it sounds callous, but this was a nude spa. A place of public accommodation where ya gots vulva and breasts in your face left and right. You only have but so much latitude to be prudish about unexpected nudity in such a public spa. I don't go to places to get naked with a bunch of strangers, then get weird about it. You got weird about nudity (by American standards) walking in the door.

There's a very reasonable expectation that if you're in the female side of the nude spa, you're going to see breasts and vulvas.
There's also a very reasonable expectation that if you're in the female side of the nude spa, you're NOT going to see penises and scrotum.

It's not "getting weird about it" to object to seeing penises and scrotum in an area that is expected to only allow females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

"Tumescent Penis" is going to be my band name.

I'm sorry those people were harassed and called bigots for objecting there, I'm also sorry the staff felt they were unable to call the police on a clear case of sexual harassment.

At the same time, the behavior of this clearly mentally ill person shouldn't reflect on all trans-people. It's the extrapolation of the bad behavior from the few to the many that is the essence of bigotry.

Mycroft, I appreciate that you understand and have compassion for the females involved. Can we try to take this a bit further, and explore it civilly?

What is the bad behavior that Merager exhibited?

 

[Thermal]

Pretty much every person on this planet can be categorized as either male or female, from a purely biological perspective.

Yup. And gender is not a biological issue, so pretty irrelevant.

Some people may be very very confused about who and what they are, but that doesn't mean that the rest of society has to cater to that confusion.

Agreed. Those wheelchair bound people can just "walk it off" too, amirite?

Just because I decide 3 years from now that I am a puppy doesnt mean I should be able to spend time at the animal shelter.

Correct!

Just because I decide 6 years from now that I want to identify as a toddler, doesn't mean I should be able to enroll in kindergarten.

Also correct! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

IIRC they did some lewd things in addition to just being there. If they had stayed in the hot tub and not drawn attention to themselves, they probably would have gone unnoticed.

I guarantee that penises in the female-only section of the spa would NOT go unnoticed.

Do you believe that females should be required by law to share intimate spaces with males against their will?
Do you believe that males should have the protected right to enter spaces where females are naked or vulnerable, over the objections of the females in those spaces?

 

[Thermal]

There's a very reasonable expectation that if you're in the female side of the nude spa, you're going to see breasts and vulvas.
There's also a very reasonable expectation that if you're in the female side of the nude spa, you're NOT going to see penises and scrotum.

It's not "getting weird about it" to object to seeing penises and scrotum in an area that is expected to only allow females.

Isn't it simply a matter for them to sex segregate their spa, though? The state should be fine with that, right?

Eta: in a 'nudity casual' space, what exactly is the issue with seeing men? You're feeling good about showing the labia to any strange women, but to a guy is just weird?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I may not remember correctly, but in looking for answers I found it may be a hoax.

Violence Over an Alleged Transphobic Hoax Shows the Danger of Underestimating Anti-Trans Hate

Police reportedly suspect the viral L.A. Wi Spa video is fake—but it still got two people stabbed.

slate.com

Alleged Trans incident at upscale LA Spa may have been staged

The video quickly made the rounds in far right, and Trans-Exclusionary Feminist (TERF) sites and Anti-trans “feminist” websites.

www.losangelesblade.com

It wasn't a hoax, and Merager was eventually convicted of indecent exposure for the incident.

But there were several attempts by activists to convince people that it was a hoax.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's really interesting. The spa was LGBTQ friendly, and actually had a client list of trans clients, none of whom were there that day (it's a members only place). So a trans person there was not out of the ordinary at all? The offender apparently just walked in under false pretenses and exposed himself, like his previous arrest record indicates. That's why the judge threw out the 'transphobe' defense- the guy wasn't actually trans.

How do you determine whether or not they are "actually trans"? Their drivers license listed them as female.

Wi Spa controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The suspect has been commonly reported to be a trans woman. In an interview with the New York Post, the suspect said their legal gender designation was female. However, The Guardian claimed the suspect's "gender identity was also unclear". In an interview with LA Magazine the suspect said: "he/him and she/her pronouns are just fine but [the suspect] loathes they/them". On their driver's licence, the suspect is listed as female.

 

[Thermal]

How do you determine whether or not they are "actually trans"? Their drivers license listed them as female.

Apparently they register with the spa as trans. The article stated that the spa has a list of their trans members, and none were there when the incident happened.

Which is why I'm wondering where their trans clients normally went. Women's side? Men's side? Tranny's choice?

Eta: also, Merager is said to loathe "they/them" as applied to... Merager. You intentionally misgendering there, Skippy?

 

[theprestige]

Theprestige dismissed wearing women’s clothing as “sexist nonsense”.

No. Absolutely not. You lie. You lie. You lie.

I dismiss women's clothing as a definition of womanhood, as sexist nonsense.

You're smart enough to have grasped this. You're wise enough to understand how evil it is, to call a woman a man, if she puts on trousers, or to call a man a woman if he wears his hair long.

And yet you still put forward stereotypical attire as the hallmark of gender identity.

And yet you lie about my response. You lie.

Trans rights activism depends heavily on lies perpetuated by useful idiots against their better judgement. I just didn't expect to see you on that side of the line. What happened to your better judgement?

Edited colour of quoted text for formatting clarity

Posted By: jimbob

 

[Emily's Cat]

According to your data, on the single issue of letting a person use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, the public in general favors my point of view 53% with 23% who are unsure, to 31% who opposes,

Which does not match my own personal 7-2-0.

Maybe it's because I live in a city among people who vote blue, while the people who vote red (trumpers) tend to be more rural. Or maybe it's the small sample size, and if I were to continue I would find more people who disagree.

In any case, I can't remember a time when more effort was put to show me data that agrees with me.

I don't know what you're looking at, but I think you've got it wrong.

Where Americans stand on 20 transgender policy issues | YouGov

Majorities agree with existing protections in the U.S. for transgender people against hate crimes and discriminatory firings, but transgender inclusion in athletics, prisons, and public bathrooms all receive more opposition than support.

today.yougov.com

On the topic of making policies that allow transgender people to use bathrooms that match their gender identity:
Support 31%
Neutral 19%
Oppose 50%

On the topic of requiring transgender people to use bathrooms that match their sex
Support 43%
Neutral 26%
Oppose 31%

 

[Emily's Cat]

If we were starting from square one on the first day of this thread, that would be a valid point. We are not. It is not. And asking for clarification every time the word 'woman' comes up in a thread deicated to the concept of gender would get mind numbingly tedious, so most of us here are acknowledging the crystal clear context involved.

It's NOT crystal clear though. I don't consent to ceding the word "woman" to represent feelings inside the head of a male. I reserve the word "woman" to represent a sexually mature female human being. I use it in exactly the same way I use the word mare or hen or vixen. It's the species-specific term for a mature female.

It's also necessary to be specific repeatedly. For example, when we see a sign that says "women's locker room" almost all of us recognize that the term "woman" is being used to represent female human beings. It is NOT being used to represent nebulous gender identities. But some posters will retconn that pre-gender-self-id term into magically meaning that any male who says magic words is naturally expected to use that locker.

Furthermore, this thread isn't dedicated to the concept of gender. It's largely dedicated to the conflict between self-declared gender identity and sex. And quite a number of us fall on the side of sex taking precedence.

 

[smartcooky]

I think the goal of overriding sex segregation by fiat self-ID is antisocial and misogynistic.

...as are those who support it.

I think that advocating irreversible trans affirming treatment on the basis of ideology over science is obscene.

Indeed.

I have seen no evidence that overriding sex segregation by fiat self-ID benefits anyone at all - not women, not dysphorics - anyone besides predators and misogynists.

Exactly

What concerns me is that too many people today don't think my equation is on the nose enough.

It's amazing to me that when confronted with the idea of men being entitled to override sex segregation whenever they want, you reflexively decide sex segregation must be the problem.

Agree. This the whole argument of the most radical of TRAs - it's one of their most important talking points.

It never occurs to you that sex segregation is the solution to such men.

Of course it doesn't.