Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Mycroft]

Of course, which is why I'm not wild about negating sex segregated spaces. But "uncomfortable"? 99.999% of the time, your comfort is your own problem, not the public's.

Don't conservatives roll their eyes and talk about liberal snowflakes when safe spaces are brought up?

Maleness Paper Bag and security guard at the ready, do ya?

Yeah, how are we going to enforce this?

Also, if we insist trans-people use the bathrooms that match the gender assigned at birth, how exactly is that enforced? And since it's easier to make a woman look like a man, it doesn't take much testosterone to get those facial beard hairs going, are they going to be stopped at the door until their vagina is confirmed?

Also, how would that ciswoman having having a really bad day with a miscarriage or major period malfunction feel about a transman with a full beard (but hidden vagina) feel about that person invading their space at such a sensitive time?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Socialize? It's a place to void you bowels and/or bladder, clean up and get back to socializing with your ass clean and pants up.

What the hell are you guys doing in there? Talking through the stalls about your kids while wiping your assess? Take a tip from the gents and socialize at the bar like civilized people.

Males go to the restroom solely to void. Females go to the restroom to void, but in a whole lot of cases we also go to escape from unwanted male attention that we can't otherwise avoid. We also chit chat, deal with menstrual emergencies, help each other with clothing-related challenges, sort through our purses or personal items, and a host of other things.

And yes, we talk through the stalls. Had a lovely discussion the other day about why on earth anyone thought that a chemical-laden watermelon scent was a good choice for the toilet air freshener, as well as lamenting the change in soap.

 

[d4m10n]

Why? People go where they go, almost always in what we would consider the right room. I don't evaluate their admission standard, and don't intend to start today.

You seem to be saying that it's not okay for the rest of us to object to an obviously male person entering a female space.

Care to make an argument for that without falling back on what you won't bother to do?

 

[Hercules56]

I did not. You are putting words in my mouth (or don't read well).

YOU said that the only transition that should be required in order to use the women's bathroom or locker room or changing room is between their ears. Which suggests no medical or social transition should be required.

I think most women on this planet would say ◊◊◊◊ that. If you want to use the women's bathroom or a shower or changing room you have to at least look like a woman.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Apparently there is a surprisingly good chance of walking into someone having a miscarriage or a messy period emergency. And somehow these situations are made worse if a transwoman is peeing in one of the stalls.

It's made worse by MALES being present, irrespective of how they dress or present.

 

[Mycroft]

It's made worse my MALES being present, irrespective of how they dress or present.

Transmen present as males. Do they make the experience worse too? Why or why not?

Imagine full beard, plaid shirt, blue-jeans and suspenders.

 

[Thermal]

Don't conservatives roll their eyes and talk about liberal snowflakes when safe spaces are brought up?



Yeah, how are we going to enforce this?

Also, if we insist trans-people use the bathrooms that match the gender assigned at birth, how exactly is that enforced? And since it's easier to make a woman look like a man, it doesn't take much testosterone to get those facial beard hairs going, are they going to be stopped at the door until their vagina is confirmed?

Also, how would that ciswoman having having a really bad day with a miscarriage or major period malfunction feel about a transman with a full beard (but hidden vagina) feel about that person invading their space at such a sensitive time?

See, that's why it's so frustrating for me. I really do want everyone safe, and I am hip to a woman feeling less safe with a man in a private space than I would. I kind of assumed that the threat is heavy duty for perving.

But I look around my own trans friendly state... and it's not happening. Are New Jerseyans just wonderful people, but where all the other posters live, they are a bunch of ravenous sex freaks?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why tho? Why would someone want strange bio women over a transwoman? That transwoman might have medical training, or multiple sisters and actually know much more than any other woman around. But she should be kicked out over some 1940s sexist thinking? How far backwards are we moving?

Are you seriously asking why a female might prefer to have a strange female help them with a female-specific issue than a strange male? Are you genuinely confused about why a female might object to having a strange male see them naked and vulnerable but be okay with a strange female being there?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The opposite, actually. Men are wondering why you are so hateful and ostracizing against one of your own, and why you are so happy to discriminate against them.

See, you keep forgetting that we think of them as women, not men. You are being hateful to women, from our POV.

Just because you gate-keep masculinity and seek to oust anyone who doesn't live up to your standard doesn't mean they're actually females, nor does it obligate females to accept them.

Females are not failed males.

 

[Mycroft]

You seem to be saying that it's not okay for the rest of us to object to an obviously male person entering a female space.

Care to make an argument for that without falling back on what you won't bother to do?

How do you deal with transmen? Wouldn't someone who objects to "biological males" in the woman's room also object to that person with a beard being there?

 

[Emily's Cat]

-granny's request: again, over here the majority of gynecologists are male.

First - you're completely overlooking that many elderly need assistance with activities of daily living such as toileting, bathing, and dressing. And if an elderly female requests that the person helping them clean their vulva be female, I think that request should be ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ honored!

Second... you're wrong. As of 2018:

Currently, over one third of the overall physician workforce are women<a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6019142/#R21">21</a> and 54.5% of practicing obstetricians and gynecologists are women.<a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6019142/#R1">1</a> This trend is even more pronounced among young obstetricians and gynecologists; in 2016, 83.1% of obstetrics and gynecology residents and fellows were women.

Association of Obstetrician Gender With Obstetric Interventions and Outcomes - PMC

To estimate whether there are differences in obstetric interventions or outcomes by the gender of the delivering physician. We conducted a retrospective cohort study of all nulliparous women delivering singleton, vertex, live births at ≥37 weeks of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Thermal]

You seem to be saying that it's not okay for the rest of us to object to an obviously male person entering a female space.

Care to make an argument for that without falling back on what you won't bother to do?

Im.saying that extremes are easy to talk about, but eventually you move away from them and find you are in a position where you are guaranteed to violate people's rights, privacy and dignity, so arguing about the extremes is pointless when the whole concept is a no-go.

 

[Thermal]

Are you seriously asking why a female might prefer to have a strange female help them with a female-specific issue than a strange male? Are you genuinely confused about why a female might object to having a strange male see them naked and vulnerable but be okay with a strange female being there?

What "see"? I thought that discussion was about a hypothetical transwoman peeing in a stall next to you, who would probably (IMO) give privacy when asked?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Eta: 'strange' applies to both, because it highlights that such women will trust a bio female more than a transwoman. If you are not prejudiced, you would see them as roughly equal in trustworthiness.

Why on earth do you think that females should be expected to see males as equally trustworthy to females when dealing with an intimate and explicitly female phenomenon?

Dude, seriously. If your spouse ends up having an unexpected bleed through and needs assistance getting their underwear cleaned, do you think your wife would be as comfortable with a male they don't know offering to help them as a female stranger helping them? If you're being absolutely honest, would *you* be as comfortable? Would you actually, for realsies, be just as comfortable having Eddie Izzard clean your wife's skivvies in a public restroom as you would with a random female who actually knows what it's like to be in that situation?

 

[Thermal]

First - you're completely overlooking that many elderly need assistance with activities of daily living such as toileting, bathing, and dressing. And if an elderly female requests that the person helping them clean their vulva be female, I think that request should be ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ honored!

Second... you're wrong. As of 2018:

Association of Obstetrician Gender With Obstetric Interventions and Outcomes - PMC

To estimate whether there are differences in obstetric interventions or outcomes by the gender of the delivering physician. We conducted a retrospective cohort study of all nulliparous women delivering singleton, vertex, live births at ≥37 weeks of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Color me surprised, thanks for the correction.

Eta: and I wasn't "overlooking" anything about elder care. It's kinda insulting to a health care worker yo suggest there is some kind of sexy angle in their treatment. What, is granny going to ask the doc on a date? It's inappropriate to treat health care workers like that.

 

[Thermal]

Why on earth do you think that females should be expected to see males as equally trustworthy to females when dealing with an intimate and explicitly female phenomenon?

Dude, seriously. If your spouse ends up having an unexpected bleed through and needs assistance getting their underwear cleaned, do you think your wife would be as comfortable with a male they don't know offering to help them as a female stranger helping them? If you're being absolutely honest, would *you* be as comfortable? Would you actually, for realsies, be just as comfortable having Eddie Izzard clean your wife's skivvies in a public restroom as you would with a random female who actually knows what it's like to be in that situation?

EC, before we keep endlessly changing the subject, you claimed I made a somewhat surprising claim which I'm pretty sure I never made? Did we forget about that?

 

[Mycroft]

How do you deal with transmen? Wouldn't someone who objects to "biological males" in the woman's room also object to that person with a beard being there?

I think they're imagining that scene from Carrie. You can't hide from that in a stall.

 

[Mycroft]

First - you're completely overlooking that many elderly need assistance with activities of daily living such as toileting, bathing, and dressing. And if an elderly female requests that the person helping them clean their vulva be female, I think that request should be ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ honored!

My mom spent the last months of her life in an assisted living facility, and the people I saw assist her with these things were male.

 

[Mycroft]

Why on earth do you think that females should be expected to see males as equally trustworthy to females when dealing with an intimate and explicitly female phenomenon?

By "males" you mean transwomen.

Dude, seriously. If your spouse ends up having an unexpected bleed through and needs assistance getting their underwear cleaned, do you think your wife would be as comfortable with a male they don't know offering to help them as a female stranger helping them? If you're being absolutely honest, would *you* be as comfortable? Would you actually, for realsies, be just as comfortable having Eddie Izzard clean your wife's skivvies in a public restroom as you would with a random female who actually knows what it's like to be in that situation?

How would they feel about transmen helping?

 

[d4m10n]

Im.saying that extremes are easy to talk about, but eventually you move away from them and find you are in a position where you are guaranteed to violate people's rights, privacy and dignity, so arguing about the extremes is pointless when the whole concept is a no-go.

Rights don't exist in a Platonic realm, we make them up as we go along as a society.

You believe that someone who is obviously male but has just today started "their own soul searching" about gender ought to have a (moral or legal) right to enter spaces which were built and designed for the opposite sex. I am skeptical of that rights-based assertion and require a persuasive argument before we tear down the proverbial fence.