Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

If you can't acknowledge my position is trans-women are a sub-set of women then further communication is impossible.

I speak from my own paradigm. Stop trying to force me into yours.

Yes, Mycroft, I'm well aware of your belief. What is lacking is reason. When you declare your belief as if it were fact, and then refuse to elaborate on even the rationale for your belief... then you're not communicating at all.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm open to new information. How often do you walk into a woman's bathroom and find someone having a miscarriage?

Twice in my life.

 

[Emily's Cat]

...right... right, I wouldn't clock a guy who was soft spoken and polite as a woman. Those aren't women traits. They are traits applied to a man, or a woman. They are not gendered, individually or collectively.

And that's why I've got no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idea what we are even talking about anymore. You guys are arguing with voices in your heads that correlate to occasional keywords you spot in the posts. It's freaking schizophrenic

I get that you're irritated, but don't take it out on me.

Like I said, I suspect you'd perceive them as being effeminate males, but you would *not* perceive them as being females.

 

[Mycroft]

Twice in my life.

That's certainly more than I would expect, but still not very often.

Would the result have changed significantly if a trans-woman were peeing a few stalls over?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The desire to live as women.

I don't think more than that is necessary.

I desire to live as a billionaire. I think most humans believe more is necessary than my desire.

Here, let's try a slightly different approach. Rachel Dolezal very strongly desired to live as a black person, despite having been born white and being raised in a white household. Do you think that black people in general should be expected to accept Dolezal as being black, based on their desire?

 

[theprestige]

The desire to live as women.

Which upon examination, turns out to be either functionally meaningless, or else the desire to be treated as female. Which they are not.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's certainly more than I would expect, but still not very often.

Would the result have changed significantly if a trans-woman were peeing a few stalls over?

It would have been considerably more uncomfortable and distressing than it already was.

 

[Mycroft]

Yes, Mycroft, I'm well aware of your belief. What is lacking is reason. When you declare your belief as if it were fact, and then refuse to elaborate on even the rationale for your belief... then you're not communicating at all.

I explain myself quite well, it's you who chooses to be obtuse.

You should stop asking questions that assume your paradigm and not mine. That's dishonest.

 

[Mycroft]

Which upon examination, turns out to be either functionally meaningless, or else the desire to be treated as female. Which they are not.

I don't see how it's functionally meaningless. Even for a cis-woman, living as a woman is not meaningless.

 

[Mycroft]

How old are you? Title IX has been in place since the early 70s.

Title IX didn't restrict who would participate, it opened up who could participate.

 

[theprestige]

I don't see how it's functionally meaningless. Even for a cis-woman, living as a woman is not meaningless.

Okay, so what does it mean? Decoupled from biological sex, what does it mean, to live as a woman?

If I fulfill certain lifestyle criteria, am I living as a woman, even if I don't identify as such? Can I be considered to be living as a woman, if I say I am, even if I don't fulfill any of the lifestyle criteria?

 

[Thermal]

Understood - and perfectly acceptable.

Two comments on this.

1) How do you treat females and how does it differ from how you treat males?

In context of the discussion here, use female forms of address. In meatspace practice, very very broadly, I tend to be much more chivalrous to women, and never touch them or indeed look at them or talk to them more than necessary, and when necessary, as disarmingly as possible. With guys (again broadly) very armingly.

2) Do you feel that all females should be expected to treat them as if they're indistinguishable from the average female, even if doing so is extremely uncomfortable or unnerving or risky for us?

i'm not sure understand?

 

[Mycroft]

I desire to live as a billionaire. I think most humans believe more is necessary than my desire.

It's much harder to get a billion dollars than it is to get a wardrobe, makeup, and some medical attention. What's your point?

Here, let's try a slightly different approach. Rachel Dolezal very strongly desired to live as a black person, despite having been born white and being raised in a white household. Do you think that black people in general should be expected to accept Dolezal as being black, based on their desire?

The issue isn't if black people accepted her or not, but that her employment was based on her being black. As far as I know, the black people in her life accepted her.

 

[Mycroft]

Okay, so what does it mean? Decoupled from biological sex, what does it mean, to live as a woman?

I think half the population already live as women without ever having had to define what it means. I'm sure some of these people are close to you, ask them.

 

[Thermal]

I get that you're irritated, but don't take it out on me.

Like I said, I suspect you'd perceive them as being effeminate males, but you would *not* perceive them as being females.

Right. Because there is nothing specifically female about being soft spoken. Christ, most guys I know are more soft spoken than most women I know.

I have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean.

 

[Mycroft]

I have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean.

Because if it's hard to define the difference between men and women, no matter how easy it is to perceive the difference, trans-people will just vanish somehow.

I don't know either.

 

[Trausti]

Right. Because there is nothing specifically female about being soft spoken. Christ, most guys I know are more soft spoken than most women I know.

I have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean.

That being a women is not a costume?

 

[Mycroft]

It would have been considerably more uncomfortable and distressing than it already was.

Why?

 

[Mycroft]

That being a women is not a costume?

I don't think trans-people believe it's a costume either.

 

[theprestige]

I think half the population already live as women without ever having had to define what it means. I'm sure some of these people are close to you, ask them.

As far as I know, Rolfe and Emily's Cat do a fine job of explaining what it means to live like a woman. The problem for you, is that their explanation is tightly coupled to biological sex, and makes much of having sex-exclusive spaces to call their own.

But let's get back to the question asked of you: What do you think it means, to live as a woman? What have the women in your life told you?