Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

For the same reason I've said over and over: I want it all. I want everyone to be safe and happy and comfortable. Not just you, and everyone else can go to hell. Everybody. So we kick around *all* the different perspectives, and sometimes we change our own.

I would also like everyone to be safe and happy and as comfortable as is reasonable. I think males should make a concerted effort to ensure that males who like to wear dresses and lipstick and heels feel comfortable and safe among their fellow males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's not a copout at all.

There are an infinite number of possibilities between the extremes. I'm not married to any one of them. I point out that one of the extremes being hard or messy doesn't mean we automatically default to the other extreme.

Now deal with what I actually say and stop trying to force me into your paradigms.

If there are infinite possibilities, then it should be fairly easy for you to suggest just one that you think is a good idea. I'm quite interested to hear your personal opinion on what would make reasonable policy.

 

[Mycroft]

Define gender.

Google does a pretty good job:

1. The male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

Define woman.

Again, google does a pretty good job:

An adult female human being.

 

[Paul2]

Not to jump on Thermal's question, do you present as a woman socially?

I’ve been lurking for a while, but I now need to ask you, why don’t you just answer a question when it is asked of you?

 

[Mycroft]

If there are infinite possibilities, then it should be fairly easy for you to suggest just one that you think is a good idea. I'm quite interested to hear your personal opinion on what would make reasonable policy.

Again, sports organizations should make their own rules free of political interference.

 

[Ziggurat]

Rick people end up sleeping under bridges?

Interstate 85 bridge collapse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I just did. Sports organizations should make their own rules free of political interference.

Sports is only part of the issue, and how exactly do you free sports organizations run by the state from political interference?

Because otherwise some trans-kid might get to join a sports teem?

When are you going to stop with this straw man? Nobody wants to stop any trans people from joining a sports team.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well... agreed. Like I've said, 99+% of the time, that's the reliable barometer. In some fringes, it's not.

Last summer, I saw someone in the park where I walk my dog. Young person, 20 or so, and the most perfectly androgynous human I've ever seen. I wasn't eight feet away, in perfect lighting, and couldn't figure out if they were male or female. It was unnerving because I couldn't clock them as anything.

With most people I clock what they want to be seen as, which usually jibes with their sex. Some guys are feminine, some gals as butch, but something just feels right about the ID. I might see a man who is unquestionably a male, but if he has long hair and makeup and a dress on, I'll probably take the shot and treat them as a woman unless I'm told otherwise. I just don't feel the need to argue with them that it's 'biological fact' that they are male. In our social interaction with each other, I don't find that to be a hill to die on

Understood - and perfectly acceptable.

Two comments on this.

1) How do you treat females and how does it differ from how you treat males?
2) Do you feel that all females should be expected to treat them as if they're indistinguishable from the average female, even if doing so is extremely uncomfortable or unnerving or risky for us?

 

[Mycroft]

I’ve been lurking for a while, but I now need to ask you, why don’t you just answer a question when it is asked of you?

I don't answer questions that force me to adopt a paradigm I don't agree with.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm actually skeptical the interior of a women's bathroom is so dramatic. While I'm sure there are miscarriages and menstrual accidents, I don't think they're that common nor affected by the transwoman peeing a few stalls over.

"I've never been exposed to this thing, and I've never really thought about it, and no female has trusted me enough to give me a candid description, therefore it must be false"

 

[Ziggurat]

Again, google does a pretty good job:

An adult female human being.

That's a very good definition. But it's not the definition you're using, because under this definition, transwomen are absolutely not women. You have to use some other definition in order for transwomen to be women.

Which is why so many leftists have a hard time providing a definition for "woman".

 

[Mycroft]

Interstate 85 bridge collapse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You're being deliberately obtuse. Knock it off.

Sports is only part of the issue, and how exactly do you free sports organizations run by the state from political interference?

When I was in school the state legislature never passed any laws restricting who could participate in sports. Now that the right-wing has gone crazy we have all this fear-mongering about a tiny number of trans-athletes.

We should de-politicize sports.

When are you going to stop with this straw man? Nobody wants to stop any trans people from joining a sports team.

You do, if the team is part of a public school system.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I never said anyone thinks there are only two options. I said the anti-trans people believe self-ID is unworkable, therefore we must default to the other extreme of excluding trans-people from important parts of daily life.

Why do you think that a special set of males being given the right of transgressing female boundaries in female-only spaces where females are naked or vulnerable is an important part of their daily life?

Why do you seemingly think that it's completely unacceptable for males to use the spaces and services reserved for males?

 

[Mycroft]

That's a very good definition. But it's not the definition you're using, because under this definition, transwomen are absolutely not women. You have to use some other definition in order for transwomen to be women.

What part of that definition excludes trans-women?

Which is why so many leftists have a hard time providing a definition for "woman".

Don't you feel just a little weird saying that after a leftist just did provide a definition for "woman"?

 

[Mycroft]

Why do you think that a special set of males being given the right of transgressing female boundaries in female-only spaces where females are naked or vulnerable is an important part of their daily life?

Why do you seemingly think that it's completely unacceptable for males to use the spaces and services reserved for males?

If you can't acknowledge my position is trans-women are a sub-set of women then further communication is impossible.

I speak from my own paradigm. Stop trying to force me into yours.

 

[Mycroft]

"I've never been exposed to this thing, and I've never really thought about it, and no female has trusted me enough to give me a candid description, therefore it must be false"

I'm open to new information. How often do you walk into a woman's bathroom and find someone having a miscarriage?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I keep saying over and over again that I believe trans-women are a subset of women and trans-men are a subset of men

You've never explained why you believe this.

I've asked you very directly several times now. What specifically do you believe that transgender identified males share in common with females that they do not also share in common with males? What specifically makes this set of males a subset of females in your eyes?

 

[Thermal]

I doubt your introspection here. I get that you want to believe this about yourself... But I sincerely doubt that if you were to meet an obviously physically male person who was refined and soft-spoken, reserved, polite, and a really good listener, you would somehow perceive them as being a "woman" at all. You might think that they're effeminate perhaps... but I don't believe you would 'clock them as a woman'.

...right... right, I wouldn't clock a guy who was soft spoken and polite as a woman. Those aren't women traits. They are traits applied to a man, or a woman. They are not gendered, individually or collectively.

And that's why I've got no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idea what we are even talking about anymore. You guys are arguing with voices in your heads that correlate to occasional keywords you spot in the posts. It's freaking schizophrenic

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because otherwise some trans-kid might get to join a sports teem?

As of today, every single transgender identified person who has the athletics skills to make the cut is allowed to join a sports team. None of them are completely excluded from participation.

 

[Mycroft]

You've never explained why you believe this.

I've asked you very directly several times now. What specifically do you believe that transgender identified males share in common with females that they do not also share in common with males? What specifically makes this set of males a subset of females in your eyes?

The desire to live as women.

I don't think more than that is necessary.

 

[Emily's Cat]

When I was in school the state legislature never passed any laws restricting who could participate in sports.

How old are you? Title IX has been in place since the early 70s.