Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Ziggurat said:
You are being dishonest. Again, almost no transpeople have DSD's. To the extent that people with DSD's represent anything "intersex" (and they almost never do, they are still overwhelmingly clearly male or female), they are irrelevant to the issue of transpeople. This debate has NOTHING to do with DSD's. It is ENTIRELY about how to treat developmentally normal males and females who want to be treated as if they are the other sex, to what extent the rest of society is obligated to do so, and how much of a difference various degrees of "transition" should affect that.

You have failed to address any of these questions in a meaningful manner.
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It's not dishonest to point out it shows biology is more complex than men are men and women are women.

Which is the primary argument of the anti-trans crowd here. An unsupported transwomen are men!

Nature is more complex than that, and sometimes biology blurs the distinctions between men and women.
 
Rolfe said:
Obviously it doesn't to you, so you take it upon yourself to decree that it doesn't make the slightest difference to anyone else either. News flash. It makes a great deal of difference to many women, for reasons that have been enumerated in this thread multiple times. It also seems to make a fair bit of difference to a fair number of men, who are embarrassed by the presence of the opposite sex in their intimate spaces.
Then we have changing facilities, showers, sleeping accommodation, sports...
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Yup. I don't want strange women walking into the toilet while I'm point Stanley at the stainless!. They will be told to GTFO sharp like!
 
Ziggurat said:
What evidence is there to present? It's definitional. Seriously, what do you think the word "male" even means? It's one thing to try to invest "woman" and "man" with cultural meaning separated from biology, but "male" and "female" are exclusively biological. "Sex change" operations don't actually change your sex, even if they give the cosmetic appearance of having done so.
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Why do you think trans-people are trans?
 
Mycroft said:
It's not dishonest to point out it shows biology is more complex than men are men and women are women.
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If this debate were about those biological fringe cases, you would have a point.

It's not about those biological fringe cases, and you don't even understand those fringe cases either. This debate is about people who are clearly and definitively either male or female, but want to be treated as if they were not. Pretending as if they are fringe cases when they are not is dishonest, and that's what you're doing.

I don't think I've ever lost respect for a poster here faster than I'm losing respect for you.
 
smartcooky said:
Yup. I don't want strange women walking into the toilet while I'm point Stanley at the stainless!. They will be told to GTFO sharp like!
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I've tried to sound out a number of men on this, and the look of disgust and "I don't want to talk about this" was remarkably similar across the board. There was a general agreement that in an emergency, where the women's toilet couldn't be used for some reason, they'd reluctantly adopt a chivalrous attitude and put up with it, but most still weren't too happy. I think those women (and men) who happily declare that it's OK for TIFs to use the men's because they don't pose a threat should rethink this one a bit.
 
Mycroft said:
Why do you think trans-people are trans?
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I don't think there's only one reason. But one of multiple reasons is body dysmorphia. Being uncomfortable in your body doesn't actually change what your body is, though. If you are male but feel like you should be female, that doesn't make you female. It just makes you a male who wants to be female.
 
Ziggurat said:
If this debate were about those biological fringe cases, you would have a point.

It's not about those biological fringe cases, and you don't even understand those fringe cases either.
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I'm pretty sure I understand them at least as well as you do.

Ziggurat said:
This debate is about people who are clearly and definitively either male or female, but want to be treated as if they were not. Pretending as if they are fringe cases when they are not is dishonest, and that's what you're doing.
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I disagree trans-women are definitively male or trans-men are definitively female. In fact, I'll point out again that what the argument boils down to.

Ziggurat said:
I don't think I've ever lost respect for a poster here faster than I'm losing respect for you.
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Ditto. Have you become a trumper?
 
Thermal said:
Ya I think you may have fallen behind in the discussion a bit.

In the US state I live, we have every legal access for transpeople imaginable, right down to high school locker room showers, which I thought would be a line never to be crossed. Apparently we crossed that Rubicon many years ago, and... nothing happened.
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Clearly, no female you care about has ever been accosted by a self-ID transwoman in a female's safe-space. Both my daughters have been, and we are NOT going to let is happen again. They are now armed with home made pepper spray, they know how to use it, and if accosted again, they will. We are also NOT going agree with any public policy that allows the same thing to happen to my granddaughters... and that is a fact!
 
Ziggurat said:
I don't think there's only one reason. But one of multiple reasons is body dysmorphia. Being uncomfortable in your body doesn't actually change what your body is, though. If you are male but feel like you should be female, that doesn't make you female. It just makes you a male who wants to be female.
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Do you think body dysmorphia is biological?
 
Mycroft said:
It's not dishonest to point out it shows biology is more complex than men are men and women are women.

Which is the primary argument of the anti-trans crowd here. An unsupported transwomen are men!

Nature is more complex than that, and sometimes biology blurs the distinctions between men and women.
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In what percentage of births is the time-honoured method of "guessing" the sex of the infant by eyballing its naked body correct? 99.982%, as it happens. And even these 0.018% of children are either male or female, they just need more specialist testing to find out which. Do you actually know what the SRY gene is?

Sex is as binary as computer code. There is only M and F, just as there is only 1 and 0. There's no T and there's no 2.

The only individuals where there is even any debate as to which box they should be put in are CAIS women. But even there, there is no third box, there are still only two boxes. And if this was a fight by CAIS women to be accepted as men because of their SRY gene, we'd be looking at a very different debate.
 
Mycroft said:
I disagree trans-women are definitively male or trans-men are definitively female.
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That's.... that's just stupid. I mean, there's no other way to describe it.

What do you even think that sex is? How is, say, Caitlyn Jenner not male? You do realize that eunuchs are males, right? A male who takes estrogen is still a male. A female who takes testosterone is still a female. "Sex change" operations don't actually change sex. And a lot of trans-identifying people don't even have surgery or take hormones.

This is just getting ridiculous.
 
Mycroft said:
If they’re males or not is what the fundamental argument it. I think trans-women should be considered to be women. You don’t.
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I believe I asked this before, and did not get an answer:

Why do you think this? What makes you think that transgender identified males should be considered to be females? And why don't you think that the views of females who are directly affected by your declaration matter?

Specifically, what do transgender identified males share in common with females that they do not also share in common with males?
 
angrysoba said:
Okay, me too, but think about it guys. Could this be what might often be referred to as "male privilege"?

Generally I don't have to wonder who is going to grope me or make aggressive sexual advances on me. I could joke about how unappealing I must be, but for many women, it probably isn't much of a joke.

Remember that meme that was going around about whether a woman alone in the woods would be more worried about meeting a man or a bear? Well, I remember a rather... "woke" female friend of mine saying that she completely understood why women might say they would prefer to meet a bear, then she casually remarked that if it were a transman she would be completely cool with that.

I didn't have to heart to point out to her that she had kind of given the game away with that one.

Is there a reason why a transman would be less threatening to her than a ... well, man?
And what is the corollary with transwomen? I think the logic is inescapable really, isn't it?
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That's a no-brainer. The transman is less threatening because the transman is a female.
 
smartcooky said:
Clearly, no female you care about has ever been accosted by a self-ID transwoman in a female's safe-space.
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True. Even though every female family member and friend I know (including my very conservative mother) has had transwomen in restrooms with them at one time or another, they barely took notice because they all just did their rest room business and went about their day.
smartcooky said:
Both my daughters have been, and we are NOT going to let is happen again. They are now armed with home made pepper spray, they know how to use it, and if accosted again, they will. We are also NOT going agree with any public policy that allows the same thing to happen to my granddaughters... and that is a fact!
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You've said this many times, and if you don't believe another word I say, please believe that I am highly sympathetic to a father loving and wanting to protect his daughters at all costs.

But it can be assumed from.your having this happen to two daughters that y'all hanging around some dicey-ass 'hoods, statistically. I mean, is everyone in New Zealand getting jumped by transwomen in bathrooms? That action ain't really happening here, ever. Bathrooms are just places you pee and stuff. If you're getting jumped, it's outside. Bathrooms are like the worst place to attack someone because you have no way out if someone else strolls in, like a man or cop walking by and hearing a cry for help. Our bad guys generally are smart, and work out in the open.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Are you unaware that this has already happened, on more than one occasion?
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I'm sure it has. I'm equally sure it has happened when males were not allowed in at all, and likely much more frequently.

But as I already said, it's actually law in my state, and has been for quite some time, that it is perfectly legal for self IDed males to do so. Yet I can't find a single instance (in the Era of social media, not just the news, keep in mind) of it ever happening here.
 
Thermal said:
I do consider it from a skeptics point of view. That's exactly how I arrived at the conclusion. Their postulate on AGP is by their own admission not evidenced. It's their postulate, that they are enamored with. When they (or anyone else) can come up with evidence and replicate findings, great. That's what skeptics value.

Till then, tin foil hattery remains unpersuasive. You might be charmed with it, and think everyone in the scientific community is cowed by trans activists on Twitter. They are not. They rely on sound findings, which the three musketeers freely acknowledge they ain't got.
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Of course people are cowed by trans activists when activists can destroy people's lives and careers with impunity. Do you think I could just choose to start doing research on AGP and as long as I 'follow the evidence where it leads' everything will be fine? You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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