Any value in acupuncture?

[brodski]

I'm asking the "why", because when the "why" is provided I believe it'll be easier to show Yrreg why its humbug.

The trouble with that tactic is that you can easily run into the "science doesn't know everything" or "according to science bumble bee's cant fly" route. It would be perfectly possible (although improbable) for acupuncture to be as effective as acupuncturists claim, but for reasons which are totally unrelated to any "eastern philosophy".

Mind you, at this point I reckon that getting Yrreg to answer any direct question would make you eligible for the million.

 

[Mojo]

I'm asking the "why", because when the "why" is provided I believe it'll be easier to show Yrreg why its humbug.

Actually, this is an important point. Acupuncture makes very specific claims about meridians, acupuncture points and "qi", which all needs to be proved to validate acupuncture. It's simply not good enough to demonstrate that sticking needles into somebody has an effect. Acupuncture needs to demonstrate that sticking needles into the specific points (and nowhere else) has the specific effect claimed. The study published last year that indicated that sticking needles into random points had the same effect as using the "proper" points gives it a major problem here.

 

[Ryokan]

Mind you, at this point I reckon that getting Yrreg to answer any direct question would make you eligible for the million.

Word.

 

[brodski]

Actually, this is an important point. Acupuncture makes very specific claims about meridians, acupuncture points and "qi", which all needs to be proved to validate acupuncture. It's simply not good enough to demonstrate that sticking needles into somebody has an effect. Acupuncture needs to demonstrate that sticking needles into the specific points (and nowhere else) has the specific effect claimed. The study published last year that indicated that sticking needles into random points had the same effect as using the "proper" points gives it a major problem here.

Right, but If an acupuncturist stated that they had found specific sites which treated specific ailments when needles where inserted, but disavowed any notion of "qi", would that no longer be acupuncture?
I believe (although a may be wrong) that it is possible to separate the "philosophy" of acupuncture, from the practice of acupuncture, and the practice has been tested, and falsified, where as the philosophy remains (like many other spiritual philosophies) unfalsifiable.

 

[Mojo]

Right, but If an acupuncturist stated that they had found specific sites which treated specific ailments when needles where inserted, but disavowed any notion of "qi", would that no longer be acupuncture?

I suppose that would do it. OK, it is not necessary to prove the exitence of "qi".

 

[yrreg]

You have got me thre again, but.... you are still wrong.

On the contrary, I have been following this thread from the beginning.

So you are saying that acupuncture is an acceptable option for people who don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on them and for people who can afford treatment and whose conditions are treatable by conventional medicine.

In other words, you are saying that acupuncture is an acceptable option for anyone.

So why are you objecting to I less than three logic's claim that you said this?

My honest stand on acupuncture is spelled out in my post 18 and earlier in my post 9. (See ANNEX below.)

Please read them carefully and completely as you would if your life depends upon it and you have to follow a doctor's prescription, i.e., from conventional scientific medicine.

I was aware that there was something I had to attend to in your query but I forgot about it, because I thought that you were just being either naive or nitpicking.

Now, thanks that you have brought it out clearly; but you still prefer to miss the nuance and subtlety and therefore the entirety of my message in that paragraph 1.

With honest intelligence you will have to draw the right conclusion from that paragraph 1 which was truncated by 3logic and which I insisted that 3logic should not have truncated; because it is not scientific to truncate text as you cite it -- it is not in accordance with scientific rigor in reproducing a text to which you take exception; because there are essential nuances and subtleties intended by the author with every word written by him. Words are not written for the sake of just occupying space and appearing to say plenty.


Okay, let's read together that paragraph 1 again:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1437823&postcount=18

1. Acupuncture is an acceptable option for dealing with medical complaints, if you don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on you.

What an intelligent and experienced reader can conclude, who is not after disingenuous nitpicking, but precisely to understand the author correctly and thereby derive some advice which might be helpful to himself, is the order of priority in the choice between conventional scientific medicine and acupuncture, thus:

In terms of priority of choice, the first choice is conventional scientific medicine; the second choice is acupuncture, specially "if you don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on you."​

Everyone, please proceed to my thread on Facts and Fictions in acupuncture; because people here have decided against intellectual decency and honesty to play dumb, dumber, and still more dumb. That is my impression, please forgive me; for anyone else with innocence and intelligence would not find anything to argue about with my posts 9 and 18.


For the sake of latecomers then, I am reproducing them again, below in ANNEX; if you want my complete and comprehensive thought on acupuncture, you will find it there provided you read intelligently and completely and don't engage in disingenuous nitpicking.


What 3logic did with his truncation of my paragraph 1 is to remove the order of priority, by chopping off those two conditions why you might have to accept or resign yourself to acupuncture, namely, "if you don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on you."


Yrreg, aspiring Fat Laughing Buddha

---------------

From Nirvana with love, Bude

ANNEX​

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1437823&postcount=18

Shall we proceed item by item, calmly, please?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by yrreg :
Acupuncture is an acceptable option for dealing with medical complaints, if you don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on you.

[ etc. etc. etc. etc. ]

Please proceed outside this quote box for specific invitations from yours truly for your calmly considered reactions.


[Kindly give careful attention to phrases in bold.]

1. Acupuncture is an acceptable option for dealing with medical complaints, if you don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on you.

2. I might be wrong with this suspicion, but if you make a survey of medical complaints treated by acupuncture and treated by conventional scientific medicine, you might just find that the number of successful cases and lasting duration of the successful treatments are quantitatively the same.

3. This rough study means you get people who are treated with acupuncture and people treated with conventional scientific medicine, on the same diseases or medical complaints.
Is this a valid approach for a study? Never tried that; as I said, it is just my almost arbitrary suspicion.

4. Actually I have seen Chinese doctors using their Chinese medical procedures, with herbs or concoctions made directly from herbs, heal patients in cases where conventional scientific medicine has given up.

5. And they cost in most instances less than 20% or even less of what scientific medical practitioners will cost you, with all kinds of drugs, procedures, and equipment expenses and hospitalization. (Addendum: the sky is the limit in professional fees, unless you enjoy socialized medicine.)

6. I said that if you don't have enough money for conventional scientific medicine or this kind of medicine has given up on you, you can and might profitably try acupuncture, and I will add also Chinese medical practitioners working with herbs and drugs directly sourced from herbs, including natural components from organic and mineral origins.

7. I will also add that if you want to experiment because you are not in an urgent medical situation, try the Chinese medical practitioners, you might just save a bundle of money and get the successful lasting treatment for your medical problem.

8. I would like to ask people here whether there are scientific studies of successful treatments done by Chinese doctors in patients given up by conventional scientific medicine.

9. I think that is a good approach for a study: round up people who had been treated successfully by Chinese doctors, who had been earlier given up by medical practitioners of conventional scientific medicine, and find out why the Chinese doctors succeeded where conventional scientific doctors had given up. In this manner conventional scientific medicine stands to gain new knowledge in medicine.

10. Allow me to point out that Chinese medicine is not to be equated with what people might think to consist in gestures and in orations executed by religious medicine men, maybe called tribal healers, who would treat sick people by appeals to invisible agents called spirits.

------------------

For my part I am searching the net for reliable accounts of people given up by doctors of conventional scientific medicine, but healed and still alive and healthy today, by Chinese medical practitioners using their traditional methods, and with herbs or concoctions made from materials of organic and mineral origins.


[Please remain calm and keep to rational mood with your reactions.]


Yrreg

Acupuncture is an acceptable option if...

Acupuncture is an acceptable option for dealing with medical complaints, if you don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on you.

I might be wrong with this suspicion, but if you make a survey of medical complaints treated by acupuncture and treated by conventional scientific medicine, you might just find that the number of successful cases and lasting duration of the successful treatments are quantitatively the same.

This rough study means you get people who are treated with acupuncture and people treated with conventional scientific medicine, on the same diseases or medical complaints.

Is this a valid approach for a study? Never tried that; as I said, it is just my almost arbitrary suspicion.


Actually I have seen Chinese doctors using their Chinese medical procedures, with herbs or concoctions made directly from herbs, heal patients in cases where conventional scientific medicine has given up.

And they cost in most instances less than 20% or even less of what scientific medical practitioners will cost you, with all kinds of drugs, procedures, and equipment expenses and hospitalization.


I said that if you don't have enough money for conventional scientific medicine or this kind of medicine has given up on you, you can and might profitably try acupuncture, and I will add also Chinese medical practitioners working with herbs and drugs directly sourced from herbs, including natural components from organic and mineral origins.

I will also add that if you want to experiment because you are not in an urgent medical situation, try the Chinese medical practitioners, you might just save a bundle of money and get the successful lasting treatment for your medical problem.


I would like to ask people here whether there are scientific studies of successful treatments done by Chinese doctors in patients given up by conventional scientific medicine.

I think that is a good approach for a study: round up people who had been treated successfully by Chinese doctors, who had been earlier given up by medical practitioners of conventional scientific medicine, and find out why the Chinese doctors succeeded where conventional scientific doctors had given up. In this manner conventional scientific medicine stands to gain new knowledge in medicine.


Allow me to point out that Chinese medicine is not to be equated with what people might think to consist in gestures and in orations executed by religious medicine men, maybe called tribal healers, who would treat sick people by appeals to invisible agents called spirits.


[Yrreg]

 

[yrreg]

Only now the idea has dawned upon you guys?

Originally Posted by brodski :
Right, but If an acupuncturist stated that they had found specific sites which treated specific ailments when needles where inserted, but disavowed any notion of "qi", would that no longer be acupuncture?​

I suppose that would do it. OK, it is not necessary to prove the exitence of "qi".

Finally, that thought has arrived in your intelligence; and I had been saying that since way back.

CE 16th February 2006, 05:14 AM post 55
---------------------

I said that science today has not explained everything noticed by man and today cannot explain everything noticed by man. Remember and don't ever forget, science is a growing science.

I did not say that acupuncture is immune to scientific explanation. It is not immune only we have to study more thoroughly this phenomenon of acupuncture to discover the science that is its underpinning, whatever its a-scientific explanations found in its traditional presentation as a medical system and practice.

Please don't twist my words and please don't engage in selective reading of my posts. And don't nitpick, just to be argumentative for no useful purpose to the advancement of knowledge, except to feel that you are so scientifically skeptical, and others cannot because they maintain an open mind about acupuncture.

I am modesty aside a super skeptic: where everyone is in the bandwagon, like taking up Buddhism or bashing acupuncture, then I will take the opposite tack.


Yrreg

CE 16th February 2006, 08:43 AM post 62
------------------

Well, guys, this topic, "Any Value in Acupuncture?, is really so absorbing and challenging, for a most enjoyable exercise in the investigation of the paranormal apparently at least.

That is why I have decided to start a new thread on acupuncture, namely, "Facts and Fictions in Acupuncture."

Facts are independent of man's mind. Fictions are to be found in man's mind and then enacted outside.

Now, we want to find the facts and explore the fictions in acupuncture, using all the stock knowledge I have in regard to critical thinking, specially whetted by scientific skepticism.

Please check this forum for the appearance of that thread.

In the meantime, apologies to everyone who think that I am an arrogant son of my mother; actually if you were my roommate you would know after one hour together as roommates, that I am the humblest most unassuming chap in the universe.

In the meantime you still have to study the traditional from the Far Eastern ancient folks rationale of acupuncture, you might still learn a lesson or two about life and the universe scientifically, that will expand the present horizons of science maybe into totally different directions.


Yrreg, aspiring Fat Laughing Buddha

---------------

From Nirvana with love, Butai.

 

[RationalVetMed]

My honest stand on acupuncture...

I was aware...

honest...

intelligence...

Words are not written for the sake of just occupying space...

I am reproducing again...

Oh now you're just being ridiculous

Yuri

 

[Mojo]

In terms of priority of choice, the first choice is conventional scientific medicine; the second choice is acupuncture, specially "if you don't have enough money for treatment and medication in conventional scientific medicine, or if conventional scientific medicine has given up on you."

Why is acupuncture a "second choice" behind conventional scientific medicine?

p.s. don't bother attaching your earlier posts as annexes: we've already read them.

 

[yrreg]

Conventional scientific medicine is faster.

Why is acupuncture a "second choice" behind conventional scientific medicine?

p.s. don't bother attaching your earlier posts as annexes: we've already read them.

Conventional scientific medicine is faster; however, as I said, if one cannot afford conventional scientific medicine, or it has given up on one, then acupuncture or some other traditional medicine from China or India can be resorted to.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1437823#post1437823

7. I will also add that if you want to experiment because you are not in an urgent medical situation, try the Chinese medical practitioners, you might just save a bundle of money and get the successful lasting treatment for your medical problem.

But please go to the thread on Facts and Fictions in Acupuncture, and answer a question I have for people there, all in the quest for the scientific underpinning for the efficacy if there is any in acupuncture.


Yrreg, aspiring Fat Laughing Buddha

---------------

From Nirvana with love, Bude.

 

[Ryokan]

Conventional scientific medicine is faster; however, as I said, if one cannot afford conventional scientific medicine, or it has given up on one, then acupuncture or some other traditional medicine from China or India can be resorted to.

How about homeopathy and voodoo? Should desperate people fill their bodies with all kinds of alternative junk?

 

[Mojo]

How about homeopathy and voodoo? Should poor people fill their bodies with all kinds of alternative junk?

It's not really about effective treatment: it's about how to maximise income from the patient. There's no point in offering expensive treatments to people who can't afford them; they won't be able to pay. But if you can provide something within their budget, you can maintain your cash-flow.

 

[Mojo]

But please go to the thread on Facts and Fictions in Acupuncture, and answer a question I have for people there, all in the quest for the scientific underpinning for the efficacy if there is any in acupuncture.

I've answered it (it wasn't really too difficult, as the question you asked was "Well, what do you guys say here...?" so any response would be an answer). But I have also, to aid your "quest for the scientific underpinning for the efficacy if there is any in acupuncture", explained why your approach of finding a single successful case is unworkable, and the sort of approach you need to take if you want to investigate the efficacy of acupuncture.