Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. You might not see it, because it's not directed at you. Just give it a think though - how often have you heard some absolute idiot make a snide comment about Michelle Obama or Serena Williams being "a man" or "manly"?

My point is narrower than you are taking it. I was quite explicit about women facing social expectations and reprimand. But it doesn't take the specific linguistic form of "not a real woman". Your examples still fit that.

There are just as many behavioral constraints on females as there are on males.

Absolutely, and I thought I made that explicit previously.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, no, this never happens.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1905668920419221898

If you can't see the thread the second tweet details a number of other offences including credit card fraud, a bomb threat, domestic violence and sexual assault.

But of course every one of these is just a single aberrant isolated case and there should be no question of preventing trans ladies in general from accessing women's spaces because of them. It wouldn't be fair. We need rigorous statistics to show that these fetishistic, perverted men are more likely to do this sort of thing than other men, first. Then when we produce the statistics, that's still not enough. It's possible that somewhere in a small village in Wales there's a single trans identifying man who is genuinely kind and considerate and just wants to pee, and we wouldn't want to discriminate against him, would we?

Sick of this.

 

[Hercules56]

Multiple years into this discussion, and you seriously haven't figured out that the entire issue is that a woman is a distinctly different concept than "biological female"?

I mean ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ seriously, dude. If you say a guy is not a "real man" does ya silly ass not understand that there is a whole different paradigm at play than denying the guy has facial hair and an identifiable skeletal structure?

Sorry but most people see sex and gender as interchangeable. It's only the Princeton/Berkeley Progressive elite who view it differently. When I am asked by a form if I am male or female, it is my understanding that they are asking what my biological sex is. That's how most Americans see it as well.

 

[Hercules56]

Oh, no, this never happens.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1905668920419221898

If you can't see the thread the second tweet details a number of other offences including credit card fraud, a bomb threat, domestic violence and sexual assault.

But of course every one of these is just a single aberrant isolated case and there should be no question of preventing trans ladies in general from accessing women's spaces because of them. It wouldn't be fair. We need rigorous statistics to show that these fetishistic, perverted men are more likely to do this sort of thing than other men, first. Then when we produce the statistics, that's still not enough. It's possible that somewhere in a small village in Wales there's a single trans identifying man who is genuinely kind and considerate and just wants to pee, and we wouldn't want to discriminate against him, would we?

Sick of this.

Are you saying that transgender people have a genetic predisposition toward criminal activity?

 

[Pixel42]

Multiple years into this discussion, and you seriously haven't figured out that the entire issue is that a woman is a distinctly different concept than "biological female"?

Since language was invented pretty much everyone has understood what the word woman means. Recent attempts by some to redefine the word so that it no longer means biologically female were, IMO, always doomed to failure. There are very few people who need to have the difference between men and women explained to them.

 

[Rolfe]

Are you saying that transgender people have a genetic predisposition toward criminal activity?

Genetic? I'm saying there is a correlation, especially as regards sexual and violent crime.

 

[Hercules56]

Genetic? I'm saying there is a correlation, especially as regards sexual and violent crime.

Is that due to genetics or environment? It could be either.

Whether its mental illness or societal pressure, trans people do live a hard life.

 

[Thermal]

Sorry but most people see sex and gender as interchangeable.

Again, that's the whole problem. Most people are wrong.

It's only the Princeton/Berkeley Progressive elite who view it differently.

Wrong again. It is the entirety of the scientific community that recognizes the distinction, and has for generations. There is no dispute about gender being distinct from sex. The whole issue of this thread is what to do about it in practical terms.

When I am asked by a form if I am male or female, it is my understanding that they are asking what my biological sex is. That's how most Americans see it as well.

Yes. When they started using gender instead of sex on a form, it caused a tremendous amount of misunderstandings. I really wish they hadn't done it, but that barn door has long been swinging open.

I think a trans person can be treated for all intents and purposes as what they think they are, with three exceptions: medical treatment (non negotiable, really), shared intimate spaces, and competitive athletics.

But your argument is to further deny their identity wholesale. That's just bigoted. Leave them alone, man. They're not hurting you, are they? Live and let live.

 

[Rolfe]

Is that due to genetics or environment? It could be either.

Whether its mental illness or societal pressure, trans people do live a hard life.

They are the most cosseted and indulged group in society right now. They have governments, organisations, the police and the judiciary jumping to attention and enforcing their demands. Every indulgence they demand as a "right" is being granted. Corporations and public bodies are festooning themselves in their logo. Women who dare protest the loss of their intimate spaces, sporting events and so on, and the sterilisation and mutilation of children in the name of the trans cult, are being demonised, prosecuted and sacked. Some "hard life".

 

[Thermal]

Since language was invented pretty much everyone has understood what the word woman means. Recent attempts by some to redefine the word so that it no longer means biologically female were, IMO, always doomed to failure. There are very few people who need to have the difference between men and women explained to them.

The. Entirety. Of. The. Scientific. Community. Has. Recognized. The . Distinction. For. Generations.

 

[Thermal]

Oh, no, this never happens.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1905668920419221898

If you can't see the thread the second tweet details a number of other offences including credit card fraud, a bomb threat, domestic violence and sexual assault.

But of course every one of these is just a single aberrant isolated case and there should be no question of preventing trans ladies in general from accessing women's spaces because of them. It wouldn't be fair. We need rigorous statistics to show that these fetishistic, perverted men are more likely to do this sort of thing than other men, first. Then when we produce the statistics, that's still not enough. It's possible that somewhere in a small village in Wales there's a single trans identifying man who is genuinely kind and considerate and just wants to pee, and we wouldn't want to discriminate against him, would we?

Sick of this.

There is a poster on other threads who constantly posts about black people being violent. He, also, is sick of people denying how violent black people are by nature, and he documents it with facts.

Sound familiar?

 

[Thermal]

Mmmm.... not so much.

[soapbox]
The end of society is going to come about because people have lost the ability to distinguish between literal and figurative language. When we start conflating the two, it speaks to an inability to work with abstract concepts. And that ability underlies extrapolative thinking, innovation, imagination, and all of the variations of thinking into the future and considering (and mitigating against) what might happen.
[/soapbox]

When someone says "you're not a real man", everyone who understands figurative language knows that this means "you're not behaving the way our current society thinks that masculinity should be displayed". But we all also know that this doesn't imply that the person in question isn't male.

On the other hand, when we see a sign that says "men's room", we understand that this is NOT figurative, and that this was never intended to imply that the room is reserved for people displaying culturally informed masculinity. We know that it means it's the toilet facilities for males.

One of the problems with the entire concept of gender identity is that it selectively interchanges the literal and the figurative meanings, to suit whatever argument is being made. So when we start talking about the biological reality of the sexes, we'll get responses of "sex and gender are totally different"... but whoever is making that argument will frequently proceed to pretend that any instance of the common usage of "woman" as the homo sapiens species term for a sexually mature female somehow has been transformed into the performance of a sex-based stereotype.

I generally agree, but my argument was against a different, and more extreme position than yours.

The argument that sex and gender are the same is factually wrong. There is a shade of difference. To most of us, they are interchangable, because our sex and self ID line up neatly. For a very small segment of the population, they don't.

Many posters ITT want the majority rules to prevail, to the point of insulting and denying trans people to their faces, and they want public and legal support for doing so. That's a different position than you advocate, which I have no major issue with.

 

[Ziggurat]

The. Entirety. Of. The. Scientific. Community. Has. Recognized. The . Distinction. For. Generations.

John Money invented the distinction between sex and gender, and he was no scientist, though he pretended to be.

 

[Hercules56]

The. Entirety. Of. The. Scientific. Community. Has. Recognized. The . Distinction. For. Generations.

The distinction is a social construct. One that is only applied to one species of life on the entire planet.

 

[Hercules56]

...But your argument is to further deny their identity wholesale. That's just bigoted. Leave them alone, man. They're not hurting you, are they? Live and let live.

My argument is not based on bigotry. You're simply using that code word so as to try to stop discussion and debate.

 

[Thermal]

John Money invented the distinction between sex and gender, and he was no scientist, though he pretended to be.

And the idea was bouncing around long before him. Men lived and dressed and presented themselves as women throughout the annals of history. It's true. You can look it up and everything.

Also, Money's academic chops are irrelevant, when the idea has since accepted by every relevant field, from neuroscience to psychology. It really doesn't matter if the idea was first popularized by Snoopy in a Peauts strip. It has been found to be sound.

 

[Thermal]

The distinction is a social construct. One that is only applied to one species of life on the entire planet.

Yup. And?

Or are you suggesting ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ platypuses are struggling with Olympic qualifications and we need to factor that in?

Of course this is a human only issue, and painfully stupid to think it's a counterpoint to bring up.

 

[Hercules56]

When I say gender, I mean "sex". I think any distinction is a bit silly as do most Americans.

I am a male. That's all. Should be pretty obvious what I mean.

 

[Thermal]

My argument is not based on bigotry. You're simply using that code word so as to try to stop discussion and debate.

No, you've taken the most extreme far right position there is. It's a bigoted argument, whether you care to acknowledge it or not. It doesn’t stop discussion or debate. One can argue bigoted positions all day long, so you are lying on top of it.

 

[Thermal]

When I say gender, I mean "sex"

The scientific community knows better than you, and wishes people could educate themselves on the matter. It's not complicated.

I think any distinction is a bit silly as do most Americans.

Look who they voted for President.

{Eta: argument by popularity is not something that really flies on a skeptics board. You really should know this}

I am a male. That's all. Should be pretty obvious what I mean.

It is. It is not so for a small subset who, surprisingly, are people too.