Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

[Ziggurat]

I have never heard of any school that discriminated when it came to clubs or organizations.

Have you ever heard of any school that racially discriminated when it came to events or programs? Because that's certainly happened plenty.

The message from Trump seems to be we don't care if you discriminate or not, if you have any club that focuses on a specific race or ethnicity or religion we will withhold all federal funds.

That's what the message seems to be? Based on what? Press reports about what people say they are worried about? Yeah, that's a bad metric.

Still not one citation for any actual college having funding threatened over a club that doesn't racially discriminate.

 

[Hercules56]

Have you ever heard of any school that racially discriminated when it came to events or programs? Because that's certainly happened plenty.

That's what the message seems to be? Based on what? Press reports about what people say they are worried about? Yeah, that's a bad metric.

Still not one citation for any actual college having funding threatened over a club that doesn't racially discriminate.

Please cite some examples that forbid people from another race or ethnicity or religion from joining an identity related college group.

You and Tramp say they exist, so prove it

 

[Ziggurat]

Please cite some examples that forbid people from another race or ethnicity or religion from joining an identity related college group.

I'm not sure why you're fixated on discrimination in student groups, and ignoring other forms of racial discrimination that colleges have engaged in such as racially discriminatory scholarships and programs.

You and Tramp say they exist, so prove it

*I* never said they exist. I have said that other racially discriminator practices exist, though, and I just gave a couple examples (there are many more).

You say colleges are being threatened with a loss of funding over the existence of student groups that don't racially discriminate. Prove it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This:

Federal agencies bar Black History Month and other 'special observances'

A number of federal agencies have banned celebrations related to MLK Jr. Day, Women's History Month and other such observances to comply with Trump's executive orders.

www.nbcnews.com

https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/20/politics/black-history-month-trump-what-matters/index.html

Trump marks Black History Month while Pentagon declares 'identity months dead'

A Defense Department news release says official resources will not be used to mark cultural awareness months, including Black History Month

www.voanews.com

Malicious compliance. They're doing things they have not been ordered to do, which are not indicated by the EO being referenced. It's like telling a petulant teenager to "clean their room and get everything off the floor" so they proceed to remove their furniture just to stick it to you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Actually I dismiss Boghossian because he is a ... scientific hoaxer

You get that the hoax was done intentionally to draw attention to the lack of meaningful peer review and oversight in publications that are supposed to be scientific in nature? It's not like Boghossian was trying to pass of fake work as being genuine. They pretty much said "peer review and scientific integrity in the realm of publications like these are entirely absent, they're publishing rank ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ and not doing their jobs". Then they wrote an entirely false paper that did nothing but jam it full of jargony buzzwords and watched it get published.

But here, you're denigrating Boghossian for identifying the lack of scientific integrity involved as if that's a bad thing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And what about federal agencies no longer honoring or celebrating Black History month, Holocaust Remembrance Day, St Patricks Day, Columbus Day? Why spit on our beautiful diversity?

Nobody has suggested that they stop honoring those things. You should be criticizing those agencies for being petulant brats.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Trump has threatened to pull Federal funding from ANY college that has ethnic affinity clubs.

My oh my, there are so many people nowadays who are invested in segregationist clubs.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're confusing the issue with an unrealistic framing. If, hypothetically, a school gets funding from the state for student clubs, and one of those clubs is the African American Student Alliance, it would be a textbook case of viewpoint discrimination to say that "ethnic affinity" clubs aren't entitled to funding.

Would you be supportive of these universities that receive federal funds subsidizing a "White Students Alliance" or a "Male Affinity Resource Group"?

 

[mumblethrax]

Would you be supportive of these universities that receive federal funds subsidizing a "White Students Alliance" or a "Male Affinity Resource Group"?

It's irrelevant what I support. What's relevant is what is permissible without abridging free speech.

An instructive case here is Good News Club v. Milford.

 

[mumblethrax]

You get that the hoax was done intentionally to draw attention to the lack of meaningful peer review and oversight in publications that are supposed to be scientific in nature? It's not like Boghossian was trying to pass of fake work as being genuine. They pretty much said "peer review and scientific integrity in the realm of publications like these are entirely absent, they're publishing rank ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ and not doing their jobs". Then they wrote an entirely false paper that did nothing but jam it full of jargony buzzwords and watched it get published.

But here, you're denigrating Boghossian for identifying the lack of scientific integrity involved as if that's a bad thing.

You've got almost every detail of this wrong, which probably isn't a coincidence, and that has something to do with why I don't take Boghossian too seriously, and wouldn't fault someone for declining to engage with him at all.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why should a college lose federal funds just because they allow students to recognize and celebrate their ethnic diversity?

They won't lose federal funds for allowing students to recognize and celebrate ethnic diversity. They'll lose federal funds for supporting discriminatory programs that either privilege or burden students on the basis of their ethnicity. If their celebrations are actually open to all and done in good faith, they have nothing to worry about.

Not a perfect analogy by any means, but an illustrative anecdote. I have a fairly diverse set of neighbors. One family down the road is hindu, another is pentacostal. Both will host celebrations for some key religious observances, and will invite most of the neighborhood.

When the pentacostal neighbor hosts Easter, nobody shows up... Because they end up lecturing about their beliefs and opining that their god is the only true god and everyone needs to embrace jesus or be sinners doomed to boil in hellfire for all eternity etc. Their invitation is pretext for oppressive lecturing that isn't any fun at all. It's NOT inclusive, despite the invitation being extended to everyone.

When the hindu neighbor hosts diwali, lots of people show up. They are happy to share the background for diwali, and why it's important to them. But they extend their home and their goodwill in genuine friendship, and it's a chance to get to know something about their culture and to enjoy their amazing food. They don't preach or try to convert or make anyone feel bad. Their invitation IS inclusive, because it genuinely and happily includes anyone who wants to attend, and it does so with no judgement.

 

[Ziggurat]

Federal funds never were going to these clubs. They fund other things. But people like you want federal funds to no longer go to any college that has such clubs, even though Federal funding does not go to these clubs. Please explain why. Please explain what is the harm in Hillel, or Newman Society, or the Irish Club?

I keep asking for evidence that this has even been threatened. You keep not responding. I have reached the conclusion that this complaint is completely invented, and has no connection to anything that's actually happening.

 

[jt512]

When the hindu neighbor hosts diwali, lots of people show up. They are happy to share the background for diwali, and why it's important to them. But they extend their home and their goodwill in genuine friendship, and it's a chance to get to know something about their culture and to enjoy their amazing food. They don't preach or try to convert or make anyone feel bad. Their invitation IS inclusive, because it genuinely and happily includes anyone who wants to attend, and it does so with no judgement.

I'd probably show up just for the food.

 

[Hercules56]

I keep asking for evidence that this has even been threatened. You keep not responding. I have reached the conclusion that this complaint is completely invented, and has no connection to anything that's actually happening.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/16/politics/education-department-race-federal-funding/index.html

School clubs that are in any way associated with race or national origin, are now banned by the federal government and will cause the withdrawal of any federal funds to a college, high school, etc.

 

[Hercules56]

My oh my, there are so many people nowadays who are invested in segregationist clubs.

Do you have a problem with a Polish club or Jewish club or Irish club at a college?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Federal funds never were going to these clubs. They fund other things. But people like you want federal funds to no longer go to any college that has such clubs, even though Federal funding does not go to these clubs. Please explain why. Please explain what is the harm in Hillel, or Newman Society, or the Irish Club?

Your assertion is directly contradicted by what theprestige wrote in the post you quoted.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's worse when you consider John Stuart Mill's point that no position, usually, is totally devoid of a fragment of the truth, so not exploring an opposing position eliminates that nugget of truth from oneself. And, the best way to understand the opposing position is not to hear your side summarize it, but it hear it from the people who actually accept that position.

Lastly, when a position, even if there is not a single redeeming shred of truth in its opposing position, doesn't engage with its opposite it will eventually solidify into a dogma and people forget (or don't care) why it's true to begin with, and then they hold that position not because they understand why it is true, and any growth concerning that position is impossible.

I think I've quote Sun Tzu about a dozen times over the past few months.

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.​

 

[Emily's Cat]

Trump's White House posts the wonders of Black History Month, but if you dare have a college event or club that celebrates such a thing all of your federal funding will be pulled.

The first clause of your statement is true; the second clause is false.

Why does Trump hate blacks, Jews, Italians, Catholics, and everyone else who might have a college club??

Trump doesn't hate any of those things, and you really need to stop letting other people provide your information to you after having run it through their own biases and their own agenda.

 

[Ziggurat]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/16/politics/education-department-race-federal-funding/index.html

I already linked to the actual dear colleague letter that this story is in reference to. Why are you referring to a news story about the letter rather than the letter itself? Probably because you haven't actually read the letter, and don't know what it says.

School clubs that are in any way associated with race or national origin, are now banned by the federal government and will cause the withdrawal of any federal funds to a college, high school, etc.

I was correct. Your story does not make this claim. The actual dear colleague letter does not make this claim. You have invented it yourself.

 

[theprestige]

Do you have a problem with a Polish club or Jewish club or Irish club at a college?

As long as their membership, functions, and activities don't discriminate on race, no.

However, if they do discriminate on race, then it's illegal for the college to provide any funding, facilities, or other resources, to the club. If the college does that, it should lose its federal funding, and probably face other sanctions as well.

Do you have a problem with anything I've just said?