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Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

Ziggurat said:
So here's an actual source for the actual Trump administration position:

At its core, this policy is actually very, very simple:
"If an educational institution treats a person of one race differently than it treats another person because of that person’s race, the educational institution violates the law."

If anyone here object to anything in that policy, I suggest they refer to the actual policy, and not some third party's characterization of that policy.
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If the policy as stated were actually what would happen, then it would be fantastic. But it won't. It never has. Pure meritocracy has never worked. Imagine if you advertised for an important skilled position only in rich Ivy League colleges. What do you think would happen? You'd get the best rich Ivy League applicants is what.

If opportunity is not Diverse, meritocracy is impossible. If opportunity is not Equitable, meritocracy is impossible. If opportunity is not Inclusive, meritocracy is impossible. And if opportunity is not Accessible, meritocracy is impossible.

If you want meritocracy, you absolutely must have DEIA, because DEIA is the only thing that can ensure meritocracy is even possible.
 
arthwollipot said:
If the policy as stated were actually what would happen, then it would be fantastic. But it won't. It never has. Pure meritocracy has never worked. Imagine if you advertised for an important skilled position only in rich Ivy League colleges. What do you think would happen? You'd get the best rich Ivy League applicants is what.

If opportunity is not Diverse, meritocracy is impossible. If opportunity is not Equitable, meritocracy is impossible. If opportunity is not Inclusive, meritocracy is impossible. And if opportunity is not Accessible, meritocracy is impossible.

If you want meritocracy, you absolutely must have DEIA, because DEIA is the only thing that can ensure meritocracy is even possible.
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I’m searching your post for any argument in favor of racial discrimination, and I’m just not finding any.
 
mumblethrax said:
That isn't particularly true, due to delegated power.
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It’s true to the exact same extent that a Dear Colleague letter doesn’t have the force of law either.
mumblethrax said:
Like I said--what's relevant is the effect of the executive orders.
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How are executive orders put into effect?

By the actions of executive branch agencies. Case in point: the DoE Dear Colleague letter I linked to. That’s part of how an executive order from Trump is being put into effect. You cannot simultaneously appeal to effects of executive orders and then ignore effects of executive orders.
mumblethrax said:
You might want to consider who sued to enjoin these orders, and why they had standing.
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Which order exactly are you even talking about? And what exactly does the order say? I asked you before, but you are noticeably silent.
 
arthwollipot said:
The anti-DEI, anti-woke, anti-trans, anti-minority position is evil in my ideology. I do not engage with evil. I oppose it. If you think DEI is a bad thing, and you do, then I will oppose you. I will not listen to your arguments.
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I know you will never understand—or at least never admit to understand—but you have just admitted to being irrational and anti-skeptical.
 
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theprestige said:
Nobody is cracking down on this. Nobody is punishing students for this. Students are not entitled to have the federal government fund their ethnic celebrations.
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Why should a college lose federal funds just because they allow students to recognize and celebrate their ethnic diversity?
 
theprestige said:
Nobody is cracking down on this. Nobody is punishing students for this. Students are not entitled to have the federal government fund their ethnic celebrations.
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Feds aren't funding the celebrations. Why do you think schools should be punished if they let students have clubs that recognize ethnic diversity?
 
Ziggurat said:
It’s true to the exact same extent that a Dear Colleague letter doesn’t have the force of law either.
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No, it isn't, for the reasons already mentioned. Congress has delegated to power to executive agencies, which means that the president can shape that power via executive order. The USDA (an executive agency) has real regulatory power, for example. It can order people, who are not part of the executive branch, to do things. This letter, meanwhile, is nothing.

How are executive orders put into effect?
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Via the enforcement actions of the executive departments and agencies. Not via a letter which amounts to little more than a press release.

Case in point: the DoE Dear Colleague letter I linked to. That’s part of how an executive order from Trump is being put into effect. You cannot simultaneously appeal to effects of executive orders and then ignore effects of executive orders.
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I can, because there's no legal controversy with this letter. Because it doesn't actually do anything. It's just a statement of intent.

It is, in other words, irrelevant.

Which order exactly are you even talking about? And what exactly does the order say? I asked you before, but you are noticeably silent.
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I suppose my silence stemmed from a lack of desire to relitigate this just because you're here now.

Here are the relevant orders and a summary of the injunction against them.

natlawreview.com

Federal Court Blocks Trump’s Executive Orders on DEI

On February 21, 2025, a federal district court judge issued a nationwide preliminary injunction that blocks enforcement of three major provisions of President Trump’s Executive Orders related to Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) programs:
natlawreview.com natlawreview.com
 
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theprestige said:
Because you agree that racial preference is a bad thing, and think the EO in question has a valid point about US law?
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Racial preferences are bad, a Jewish club, Irish club, African club, Chinese club are fine. But you think colleges should be punished for having such things. Why?
 
Hercules56 said:
Why should a college lose federal funds just because they allow students to recognize and celebrate their ethnic diversity?
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Federal funds shall not be used to sponsor such celebrations. Students are, like all Americans, free to express their feelings about their ethnic diveristy using their own resources whenever they wish.
 
Hercules56 said:
Racial preferences are bad, a Jewish club, Irish club, African club, Chinese club are fine. But you think colleges should be punished for having such things. Why?
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What college is being punished for having a Chinese club that doesn't racially discriminate?
 
theprestige said:
Federal funds shall not be used to sponsor such celebrations. Students are, like all Americans, free to express their feelings about their ethnic diveristy using their own resources whenever they wish.
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Federal funds never were going to these clubs. They fund other things. But people like you want federal funds to no longer go to any college that has such clubs, even though Federal funding does not go to these clubs. Please explain why. Please explain what is the harm in Hillel, or Newman Society, or the Irish Club?
 
theprestige said:
Money is fungible. That's why it has to be a blanket sanction.

Also, race-based discrimination is against the law. Schools that indulge it *should* have a blanket sanction.
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Having Hillel, or Newman Society, or Irish Club, is not discrimination. People who are not members of the specific religious or ethnic group are not forbidden from joining. Now, why do you think a college should lose all federal funding just because they have such groups???? Seems extremely Petty and hateful.
 
Hercules56 said:
Federal funds never were going to these clubs. They fund other things. But people like you want federal funds to no longer go to any college that has such clubs, even though Federal funding does not go to these clubs. Please explain why. Please explain what is the harm in Hillel, or Newman Society, or the Irish Club?
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Does the club racially discriminate? If so, well, that's your harm.

If not, I don't think Trump's policy threatens schools which allow them. I have yet to hear of any actual college or university whose funding was threatened by the existence of an actual non-discriminatory club.
 
Ziggurat said:
Does the club racially discriminate? If so, well, that's your harm.

If not, I don't think Trump's policy threatens schools which allow them. I have yet to hear of any actual college or university whose funding was threatened by the existence of an actual non-discriminatory club.
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I have never heard of any school that discriminated when it came to clubs or organizations. It would be illegal for them to prevent someone from joining simply because they did not belong to the correct race or ethnicity or religion.

The message from Trump seems to be we don't care if you discriminate or not, if you have any club that focuses on a specific race or ethnicity or religion we will withhold all federal funds.

And that is bull ◊◊◊◊.

What does Trump have against Catholics and Jews in Irish people??
 
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jt512 said:
Too bad for you that you prefer to ignore people you don't like, rather than listen to their arguments (even when they are just moderating a discussion and not making arguments themselves). But I get it: it's more comfortable.
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It's worse when you consider John Stuart Mill's point that no position, usually, is totally devoid of a fragment of the truth, so not exploring an opposing position eliminates that nugget of truth from oneself. And, the best way to understand the opposing position is not to hear your side summarize it, but it hear it from the people who actually accept that position.

Lastly, when a position, even if there is not a single redeeming shred of truth in its opposing position, doesn't engage with its opposite it will eventually solidify into a dogma and people forget (or don't care) why it's true to begin with, and then they hold that position not because they understand why it is true, and any growth concerning that position is impossible.
 
Trump's White House posts the wonders of Black History Month, but if you dare have a college event or club that celebrates such a thing all of your federal funding will be pulled.

Why does Trump hate blacks, Jews, Italians, Catholics, and everyone else who might have a college club??
 
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