Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?

[Olmstead]

Let's forget God's supposed existence for a minute - you seriously think that humanity is just fine...isn't 'broken and bad' and doesn't need to 'see a doctor'?

Since we're forgetting God, we must turn to secular thinkers on the topic -- the pessimist philosophers. The prognosis? The sickness is called consciousness, and I don't think you'll like the medicine. It might as well be terminal:

"As a reliable compass for orientating yourself in life nothing is more useful than to accustom yourself to regarding this world as a place of atonement, a sort of penal colony. When you have done this you will order your expectations of life according to the nature of things and no longer regard the calamities, sufferings, torments and miseries of life as something irregular and not to be expected but will find them entirely in order, well knowing that each of us is here being punished for his existence and each in his own particular way. This outlook will enable us to view the so-called imperfections of the majority of men, i.e., their moral and intellectual shortcomings and the facial appearance resulting therefrom, without surprise and certainly without indignation: for we shall always bear in mind where we are and consequently regard every man first and foremost as a being who exists only as a consequence of his culpability and whose life is an expiation of the crime of being born." - Arthur Schopenhauer, On the Suffering of the World

Accepting this state of things has nothing to do with Christianity or God, and more importantly, God offers no salvation save the salvation of the deluded.

 

[acbytesla]

Let's forget God's supposed existence for a minute - you seriously think that humanity is just fine...isn't 'broken and bad' and doesn't need to 'see a doctor'?

Not a witch doctor.
Not one that offers these prescriptions in Proverbs.
God will laugh at your misfortunes, mock you when you are afraid, and ignore you when you ask him for help. And if you seek him, you will not find him. 1:26-28
"A rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding."
Beat the people who don't understand with a rod. 10:13
"Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed." 13:13
Beating your children with a rod is a sure sign of parental love. 13:24
God made bad people for the pleasure of punishing them. 16:4
Fools are meant to be beaten. 18:6
Beat your children and don't stop just because they cry. 19:18
Scorners should be condemned; fools should be beaten. 19:29
"A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them." A wise king will crush those that he considers "wicked." 20:26
"The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly." 20:30
"The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous." 21:18
Beating your children will make them less foolish. Have you beaten your child today? 22:15
Beat your children hard and often. Don't worry about hurting them. You may break a few bones and cause some brain damage, but it isn't going to kill them. And even if they do die, they'll be better off. They'll thank you in heaven for beating the hell out of them. 23:13-14
Whip horses and strike the backs of foolish people with rods. 26:3
Beating your children will make them wise. 29:15
Beat your servants (slaves), as though they were your children. 29:19
If you mock your father or disobey your mother, the ravens will pick out your eyeballs and the eagles will eat them. 30:17

Or these instructions in the Psalms
If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you "dash them in pieces." 2:8-9
Kiss the Son or God will get angry and might have to kill you. 2:12
God has smitten his "enemies upon the cheek bone" and has "broken the teeth of the ungodly." 3:7
God hates sinners and plans to destroy them. 5:5-6
If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you. 9:3-6
The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war. 18:34
God helps believers kill and enslave their enemies. 18:40-43
If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death. 21:9-10
God will shoot his adversaries in the back with his arrows. 21:12
God laughs at those that he will later torment. 37:13
The Psalmist praises God for driving out and afflicting "the heathen" with his own hand. 44:2
If you forget God, God will tear you into pieces. 50:22
If you don't trust in God, he'll kill you and while you're dying the "righteous" will laugh at you. 52:5-7
God will send evil on the enemies of his followers. 54:5
Referring to his enemies, the psalmist says: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell." 55:15
The psalmist devoutly prays: "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth ... let them be cut in pieces." 58:6-7
"Let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun."
The righteous" will rejoice when he sees "the wicked" being dismembered by God. He'll even get a chance to wash his feet in their blood. Now that's entertainment! 58:10
The psalmist asks God to kill all "the heathen" and not show them any mercy. 59:5
God will laugh at the heathen as he kills them. 59:8
"The God of mercy" will let the psalmist see his enemies tormented. 59:10
"Consume them in thy wrath, consume them." -- more sweet prayers to a savage god. 59:13
God will "wound the head of his enemies" so that the righteous can wash their feet "in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same." 68:21, 23
"The LORD heard this" (he had his hearing aid on) and became angry, and burned people "because they believed not in God." 78:21-22
"The wrath of God came upon them" and God killed many of the Israelites for not believing in "his wondrous works." 78:31-34
God "cast out the heathen" and gave their lands to the Israelites. 78:55
The psalmist asks God to pour out his wrath on somebody else for a change. Why not torment some strangers "that have not known thee?" 79:5-6
The psalmist asks God to "do unto them as unto the Midianites ... which became as dung for the earth." 83:9-18
If you don't follow God's commandments, he will beat you with a rod. 89:31-32
The psalmist asks God to do all sorts of unpleasant things to his enemies. "Set thou a wicked man over him; and let Satan stand at his right hand .... Let his prayer become sin." He asks God to take away his possessions, kill him, and have his children suffer for the sins of their fathers. 109:6-14
"Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow." 109:9
"Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg." 109:10
"Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour." 109:11
"Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children." 109:12
Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out." 109:13
God will "fill the places with dead bodies" of heathens. 110:6
God is praised for slaughtering kings, nations, and little babies. 135:8, 10
"To him that smote Egypt in their first born: for his mercy endures forever." 136:10
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." 137:9
The psalmist excels at hating. He hates people with a "perfect hatred" and asks God to kill them. 139:19-22
A prayer that God will burn people to death. 140:10
The God of Peace teaches us to kill each other in war. 144:1
The saints praise God while they kill and enslave "the heathen." 149:5-8

If you actually read the Bible you will see that it is a horrible book.

 

[Thermal]

I can easily think that the number of of atheists doing such charity is less than nuns, because after all, atheists need a job for living.

The Sister I am referring to is well beyond retirement age, so I'd still be looking for all those retired atheists that are doing the work, day in and day out, nights and weekends.

Or the younger ones, who do their day job and keep right on doing the work long after the workday ends.

But there are many social workers hired such purposes who are just as devoted. Whether they are Christians or atheists, nobody knows,

True. Same standard though: doing something for a check and doing it when no one is requiring, or even asking, the Sister to go so far above and beyond her duties are different gigs. A social worker will.often get invested in the people they are working with. The Sister actively tries to find more.

But I don't think it's a competition. I just admire the woman. She walks her faith like she talks it, and has my respect.

 

[Thermal]

Out of curiosity which Christian religion was that, I thought most had christenings.

The sign out front of the church affiliated with the Southern Baptists, but my impression is they were non-denom protestants before it was trendy.

{Eta: protestant christenings of babies don't generally involve water. Its more a welcoming of a new life. The protestants are kind of copying the fun catholics were having with baptizing babies and the attendant celebrations}

Many Christian religions deal with baptism at the start of life and it's a once only deal, no need to do it again.

Sort of. They just ignored the biblical description and made up something different. Many protestants consider such people unbaptized.

 

[Thermal]

In the US at least evangelicalism is rapidly moving away from only having adult baptisms. They're finding out that it's a good way to rapidly dwindle your flock if you don't get your claws in early.

Not around here (mid Atlantic USA). Kids are considered a financial loss. They are virtually guaranteed to drift away by high school.

What has been trending for a while now are non denominational hippy churches geared at grown ups, that have all kinds of adult activities and clubs. It's like buying into a whole social life, and adults have a lot more money than school kids.

 

[acbytesla]

Not around here (mid Atlantic USA). Kids are considered a financial loss. They are virtually guaranteed to drift away by high school.

Yes, short term. But without the next generation of the indoctrinated, churches are done for.

What has been trending for a while now are non denominational hippy churches geared at grown ups, that have all kinds of adult activities andclubs. It's like buying into a whole social life, and adults have a lot more money than school kids.

Yes, which of course is both a good thing and a bandaid. The best thing about Christianity today is the community it offers it's congregation. It's not about people's relationship with a phantom, but a relationship with their neighbors. It's tough to get modern educated humans to buy into a bronze age mythology that is obviously nonsense. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to demonstrate the benefits of a group.

 

[arthwollipot]

If you actually read the Bible you will see that it is a horrible book.

Have you thought about how modern Christians interpret those passages?

People aren't going around saying "Hey, well the Bible says we should bash children's heads against the rocks. Someone hand me a baby!" Why do you think they aren't?

 

[Thermal]

Yes, short term. But without the next generation of the indoctrinated, churches are done for.

Yes, which of course is both a good thing and a bandaid. The best thing about Christianity today is the community it offers it's congregation. It's not about people's relationship with a phantom, but a relationship with their neighbors. It's tough to get modern educated humans to buy into a bronze age mythology that is obviously nonsense. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to demonstrate the benefits of a group.

Exactly. Which is why I tend to be sympathetic to the religious folk I meet. It's working for them, and as arthwollipot notes above, they aren't living and breathing legalistic interpretations to justify cruelty.

 

[acbytesla]

Have you thought about how modern Christians interpret those passages?

People aren't going around saying "Hey, well the Bible says we should bash children's heads against the rocks. Someone hand me a baby!" Why do you think they aren't?

They don't read those passages. Most Christians don't have a clue about the horrors in the Bible. I didn't until I was 25 and decided to read the Bible cover to cover. (Admittedly I skipped the begats and skimmed through Daniel and Revelation. Both of which makes even less sense.)

Or they attempt to dismiss them as if they aren't part of the Bible. They'll say things like that is the old covenant. There is a new covenant.

And btw, those verses I referenced from the Psalms and Proverbs were only a fraction of the horrible verses in the Bible.

 

[arthwollipot]

They don't read those passages. Most Christians don't have a clue about the horrors in the Bible. I didn't until I was 25 and decided to read the Bible cover to cover. (Admittedly I skipped the begats and skimmed through Daniel and Revelation. Both of which makes even less sense.)

Not all Christians are like you. My church encouraged me to read the Bible, as frequently as possible, and from cover to cover.

Or they attempt to dismiss them as if they aren't part of the Bible. They'll say things like that is the old covenant. There is a new covenant.

Well, that's part of the deal. That's kind of the whole point of Jesus. You say it like it's a bland dismissal. It's actually the entire point of Christianity. Before the New Covenant, there were no Christians, there were only Jews.

And btw, those verses I referenced from the Psalms and Proverbs were only a fraction of the horrible verses in the Bible.

Yes, I can look at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible too. Have you actually asked any Christians how they interpret those verses? I have.

 

[acbytesla]

Exactly. Which is why I tend to be sympathetic to the religious folk I meet. It's working for them, and as arthwollipot notes above, they aren't living and breathing legalistic interpretations to justify cruelty.

I'm very sympathetic to people. I see Christians as victims. But not in the way they play the martyr card. They are victims of indoctrination. It's a cultural attachment. Like a baby's blanket or stuffed animal. Letting go of it is difficult. Especially when it might mean no longer belonging to the group.

I know because I went through it. I tried very hard to stay in the church I attended. There were so many people that stopped talking to me when I left. Even relatives. You know that you're no longer welcome at Saturday outings that you're accustomed to attending. And even if you are, they are either trying to reel you back in or you feel like a square peg in a round hole.

But I can't stand liars. Especially when it's me.

 

[Olmstead]

The Bible is more of a cudgel with which one can cave their head in when they run for it to justify idiocy and cruelty.

A metaphorical cudgel I mean.

 

[acbytesla]

Not all Christians are like you. My church encouraged me to read the Bible, as frequently as possible, and from cover to cover.

Yours is the exception. I know the Bible better than at least 90 percent of the people in the pews.

Well, that's part of the deal. That's kind of the whole point of Jesus. You say it like it's a bland dismissal. It's actually the entire point of Christianity. Before the New Covenant, there were no Christians, there were only Jews.

It very much is a bland dismissal. It's an inconvenient truth.
You can't have a New Testament without an Old Testament. You can't have a loving new God without the vengeful God. You don't get love thy neighbor in the New Testament without making them your slaves in the Old. You don't get God's forgiveness in the New Testament without God cursing man in Genesis.
But I remind you as the Bible says in Malachi; “For I the Lord do not change;"
in Matthew Jesus says, "For verily, I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."

And I remind all those that think the New Testament is somehow better, nowhere in the New Testament does it say that owning human beings as property is wrong. It still very much treats women as second class. It introduces eternal torture and the lake of fire and gnashing of teeth.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yours is the exception. I know the Bible better than at least 90 percent of the people in the pews.

The evidence indicates otherwise.

It very much is a bland dismissal. It's an inconvenient truth.
You can't have a New Testament without an Old Testament. You can't have a loving new God without the vengeful God. You don't get love thy neighbor in the New Testament without making them your slaves in the Old. You don't get God's forgiveness in the New Testament without God cursing man in Genesis.
But I remind you as the Bible says in Malachi; “For I the Lord do not change;"
in Matthew Jesus says, "For verily, I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."

The fact that you misunderstand and misrepresent the meaning of those particular lines speaks volumes about your knowledge of the Bible.

And I remind all those that think the New Testament is somehow better, nowhere in the New Testament does it say that owning human beings as property is wrong. It still very much treats women as second class. It introduces eternal torture and the lake of fire and gnashing of teeth.

On the contrary, fire and brimstone and eternal damnation is all over the Prophecies. Isaiah, Joel, Ezekiel, all the lesser known books that come at the end of the Old Testament that everybody forgets exist. And for the record the phrase "gnashing of teeth" appears only in the Gospels, particularly Matthew. Everybody remembers Revelation, but Christian eschatology has its foundation in the Old Testament.

You have an atheist's interpretation of the Bible - in fact an antitheist's one. I don't believe you have ever studied the Bible as a Christian does - with Christian faith and belief, in adult bible study sessions (as opposed to Sunday school) - as I did. Your understanding of it is littered with hostility and naïvety.

There certainly is plenty of absurdity and cruelty in the Bible without making more of it up, and without tarring modern Christians with the absurdity and cruelty of ancient times.

 

[acbytesla]

The evidence indicates otherwise.

The fact that you misunderstand and misrepresent the meaning of those particular lines speaks volumes about your knowledge of the Bible.

On the contrary, fire and brimstone and eternal damnation is all over the Prophecies. Isaiah, Joel, Ezekiel, all the lesser known books that come at the end of the Old Testament that everybody forgets exist. And for the record the phrase "gnashing of teeth" appears only in the Gospels, particularly Matthew. Everybody remembers Revelation, but Christian eschatology has its foundation in the Old Testament.

You have an atheist's interpretation of the Bible - in fact an antitheist's one. I don't believe you have ever studied the Bible as a Christian does - with Christian faith and belief, in adult bible study sessions (as opposed to Sunday school) - as I did. Your understanding of it is littered with hostility and naïvety.

There certainly is plenty of absurdity and cruelty in the Bible without making more of it up, and without tarring modern Christians with the absurdity and cruelty of ancient times.

I must say you make me laugh. Just saying I'm wrong on all points doesn't make it so. Now, granted, I don't know what it's actually like in your church so maybe the parishioners are studying the nonsense book more in your church and I'm overestimating my own knowledge.

Modern Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming into a more humanistic worldview. So let's not pretend that this isn't a new phenomenon. After all it was only 80 years ago Christians murdered millions of Jews while wearing belt buckles that said Gott Mit Uns. It was only 31 years ago that Catholic priests egged on their followers to commit mass genocide in Rwanda.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I was raised as a Catholic. I went to church every Sunday, a succession of Catholic schools, and a Catholic discussion group on Friday evenings.
We never, not once, encountered the parts of the Bible that said we shouldn't eat pork, we should stone unmarried daughters to death for having had sex, and make bread out of human dung. (The latter is my absolute favourite Biblical quote!) The inconvenient injunctions and laws were simply ignored.
Moreover, the inconvenient parts of the New Testament were ignored too. No-one talked about how it was possible for Jesus to have 3 different sets of last words. No-one mentioned taking what you have and giving it to the poor. Not once in church was the part read out that said the kingdom of heaven is inside you, and you don't have to die to enter heaven. We never heard the bit about how women should stand at the back of the church, or even John's advice to pray alone, not in church.
Eventually, at the age of 14, I began to have doubts. I was sent by my father to talk to the local priest. I expressed my doubts, and said that Jesus had taught that we should practise his words all the time, all of his teachings, not just for an hour every Sunday. The priest said that, yes, they knew that. They knew that following the words of Jesus was too difficult for most people, so the church let them believe that an hour of ritual a week was enough to get them into heaven with their sins forgiven. They knew they were teaching a lie.
Needless to say, I stopped being a Christian from that moment on.
The point is, Arthwollipot, that glossing over the cruelty and immorality in the Bible, by Christians, is not unusual. This is not from an atheist attacking believers: this is from one who was a Catholic, and who saw what was going on.
Can I also ask, Arth, if your church insisted you follow the teachings of the Bible, even the awkward and cruel ones? Did everyone wear a square cloak with a tassel at each corner? How frequently were daughters stoned to death for premarital sex? Were women made to cover their heads and sit at the back of the church? If not, how did they justify ignoring these particular laws of God?

 

[arthwollipot]

Can I also ask, Arth, if your church insisted you follow the teachings of the Bible, even the awkward and cruel ones? Did everyone wear a square cloak with a tassel at each corner? How frequently were daughters stoned to death for premarital sex? Were women made to cover their heads and sit at the back of the church? If not, how did they justify ignoring these particular laws of God?

You really want to know? Okay.

Those, largely, were the laws of the Old Covenant, and applied to the Old Testament Jews. The sacrifice and ascension of the Messiah fulfilled those laws. Modern Christians aren't bound by them, only by what Jesus said - love God, and love your neighbour. Also, my church is the only true church and all the ones who teach otherwise are literally Satanic. Especially Catholics because the Pope is the Antichrist. And never let a Mormon bless your house because a Mormon blessing is a curse. Also, Bohemian Rhapsody is a prayer to Satan.

They were a fun bunch of people.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

You really want to know? Okay.

Those, largely, were the laws of the Old Covenant, and applied to the Old Testament Jews. The sacrifice and ascension of the Messiah fulfilled those laws. Modern Christians aren't bound by them , only by what Jesus said - love God, and love your neighbour. Also, my church is the only true church and all the ones who teach otherwise are literally Satanic. Especially Catholics because the Pope is the Antichrist. And never let a Mormon bless your house because a Mormon blessing is a curse. Also, Bohemian Rhapsody is a prayer to Satan.

They were a fun bunch of people.

Given that this contradicts what Jesus himself says in the NT, how did they justify that?

 

[arthwollipot]

Given that this contradicts what Jesus himself says in the NT, how did they justify that?

It doesn't.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

It doesn't.

Yeah, you said that to acbytesla too. What do you think that quote means?