Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?

[Thermal]

And baptized doesn't just mean the symbolic act of water. It means being reborn into a new life, which means playing by the new rules. If you don't play by them, your baptism was an empty show.

 

[acbytesla]

And baptized doesn't just mean the symbolic act of water. It means being reborn into a new life, which means playing by the new rules. If you don't play by them, your baptism was an empty show.

Does it? No offense, but a baptism is an empty show. It's a cultural ritual and little more. It's about belonging to the society of your parents and little else. .

 

[Thermal]

Does it? No offense, but a baptism is an empty show. It's a cultural ritual and little more. It's about belonging to the society of your parents and little else. .

In the tradition I grew up in, children generally couldn't be baptized. You had to basically be an adult, making an adult commitment with an adult understanding of what it entailed.

Eta: brw, I'm not saying they were right. I'm saying I understand what they were teaching, which is often at odds with popular belief about what they teach.

 

[arthwollipot]

Does it? No offense, but a baptism is an empty show. It's a cultural ritual and little more. It's about belonging to the society of your parents and little else. .

You're referring to the Catholic/High Anglican baptism. I, and I think Thermal, are referring to adult baptism as practiced by modern evangelicals, which involves complete submersion in water.

 

[acbytesla]

In the tradition I grew up in, children generally couldn't be baptized. You had to basically be an adult, making an adult commitment with an adult understanding of what it entailed.

You mean understanding that you must deny reason, logic and science? As in Corinthians?
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

 

[acbytesla]

You're referring to the Catholic/High Anglican baptism. I, and I think Thermal, are referring to adult baptism as practiced by modern evangelicals, which involves complete submersion in water.

Lots of denominations baptize children. I was baptized in a methodist church as a baby. And I have seen the same kind of baptism ceremonies at evangelical churches. Yes, I know that baptism ceremonies vary from church to church. Some have both types. The second representing being born again. Either way, it's a ceremony for social inclusion. Not to mention another opportunity to reach into the wallets of the congregation.

 

[Thermal]

You mean understanding that you must deny reason, logic and science? As in Corinthians?
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

Again, I'm not interested in dueling gotchas about it. I get that for some people, the structure of religion works for them, as a focal point for being a good person, or living a good life. I'm ok with that.

Someone I've mentioned on various threads on this subject is a local nun named Sister Joelle. This woman spends her every waking hour trying to help others, and make their lives better. And i dont mean by saying a rosary with them. She keeps notes on people in the community that need things, and gets them in touch with others willing to donate. Like when I (construction guy) do a new kitchen, I'll often have perfectly good appliances that the vacation home remodelers just want upgraded. One call to the Sister and she'll direct me to someone in town who has been without a working oven or refrigerator for weeks or months.

I'm sure there are Atheist individuals or groups who dedicate their lives to others like that, but I haven't run across any. I think genuinely good people tend to gravitate towards a religion, as at least something close to what they want to be surrounded by.

 

[acbytesla]

Again, I'm not interested in dueling gotchas about it. I get that for some people, the structure of religion works for them, as a focal point for being a good person, or living a good life. I'm ok with that.

Someone I've mentioned on various threads on this subject is a local nun named Sister Joelle. This woman spends her every waking hour trying to help others, and make their lives better. And i dont mean by saying a rosary with them. She keeps notes on people in the community that need things, and gets them in touch with others willing to donate. Like when I (construction guy) do a new kitchen, I'll often have perfectly good appliances that the vacation home remodelers just want upgraded. One call to the Sister and she'll direct me to someone in town who has been without a working oven or refrigerator for weeks or months.

I'm sure there are Atheist individuals or groups who dedicate their lives to others like that, but I haven't run across any. I think genuinely good people tend to gravitate towards a religion, as at least something close to what they want to be surrounded by.

My experience is good people will help others regardless of whether or not they are religious. But yes there are lots of religious organizations that help others. Churches do community well.

They also preach nonsense, hate and exclusion. They stone adulterers and homosexuals. They spread the word by the sword. They behead and torture non-believers. They gas Jews and Gypsies. Catholics massacred Muslims and Muslims massacred Catholics. Shiites massacred Sunnis and vice-versa. Protestants massacred Catholics. They convince followers to commit suicide like Jim Jones and Heaven's Gate. And so on and so on and so on. As Voltaire said, 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'

I commend any human being for selfless altruism. My mother would help anyone. We adopted a family to provide Christmas presents to every year. We were expected to mow the old lady's yard at the end of the block.
She would take us to help at a soup kitchen. I never minded helping at the soup kitchen, but hated that they made those poor people sit through a boring sermon to eat.

I currently live just outside a small town of 2400 people. There are 16 churches in my town. And yet there are about 6 homeless people living on the street. They are almost entirely ignored by all these so called Christians. I know this because I make sandwiches for them once every week. Not much, I know. But I'm doing more for them than the pastors of all these churches. Amazing how that works.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I think the point I was making was that forgiveness does come with a price. In the case of God - the price is following Christ; with humans, we would and do perhaps look favourably on those who display genuine remorse.

Why does forgiveness come with a price? I thought the Christian god was supposed to be merciful? It's not mercy if I threaten to kill you for wearing cotton-polyester underwear, and only relent if you become my slave for all eternity: that's extortion.
Compare that with human systems of justice. In places that don't have the death penalty, some murderers who have served their time, and are deemed not to be a threat to society, can be released. There is no condition attached in the form of "you must now be a slave to the judge for the rest of your life". No- you are now able to re-enter society, and live your life. God shows no such leniency. On earth, you're not forgiven unless you obey, and in hell, you face punishment for all eternity. God's murderous rage and implacable authoritarianism do not, for me, constitute a sound moral code. You want an obstacle to belief? This is one of them.

 

[Thermal]

My experience is good people will help others regardless of whether or not they are religious. But yes there are lots of religious organizations that help others. Churches do community well.

I agree, but concede they may be in the minority. Many, many churches I see around are more into a back slapping circle jerk, doing little in the community but a lot of recruitment to fill their internal programs.

They also preach nonsense, hate and exclusion. They stone adulterers and homosexuals. They spread the word by the sword. They behead and torture non-believers. They gas Jews and Gypsies. Catholics massacred Muslims and Muslims massacred Catholics. Shiites massacred Sunnis and vice-versa. Protestants massacred Catholics. They convince followers to commit suicide like Jim Jones and Heaven's Gate. And so on and so on and so on. As Voltaire said, 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'

I've been around religious folk all my life. Can't recall a single one of them beheading, massacring or torturing? Maybe I wasn't there those days.

You can judge Americans, or white people, or men, by their worst actors across millennia. Or judge the ones in front of you. I think the latter standard is more reasonable. I'm not weighing Sister Joelle against Jim ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Jones as if they have anything to do with each other, any more than I would compare you and Charles Manson.

I commend any human being for selfless altruism. My mother would help anyone. We adopted a family to provide Christmas presents to every year. We were expected to mow the old lady's yard at the end of the block.
She would take us to help at a soup kitchen. I never minded helping at the soup kitchen, but hated that they made those poor people sit through a boring sermon to eat.

Kudos to you and her!

I currently live just outside a small town of 2400 people. There are 16 churches in my town. And yet there are about 6 homeless people living on the street. They are almost entirely ignored by all these so called Christians. I know this because I make sandwiches for them once every week. Not much, I know. But I'm doing more for them than the pastors of all these churches. Amazing how that works.

I hear you. We don't have any homeless people in our town. Not for long anyway, Our local cops even know where to steer the occasional wandering junkie for a warm meal and bed. No sermon, either. The cops don't steer them to just any old church, either. Just St Auggies and Damiens, where the Sister has her shop set up.

 

[acbytesla]

I've been around religious folk all my life. Can't recall a single one of them beheading, massacring or torturing? Maybe I wasn't there those days.

Me either. But we both know all too well that these atrocities have happened in the name of religious beliefs for thousands of years and continue to happen. I could post pictures of Muslims beheading 20 people from a ceremony that happened only a few years ago. Or the stoning of a young girl for adultery that happened this year. But I won't. And Muslims as a group of individuals do far more for the poor than most Christians.

But Muslims are not alone in committing such atrocities. For example Catholics killing between 5000 and 30000 thousand Protestants in France in the St Bartholomew's day massacre. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre. A millionf Rwandans in 100 days.20 years ago. I could post countless links of atrocities committed in the name of someone's God.

I don't question for a second that there are some wonderful Christians that are not hateful. In fact I have many Christian friends that I love dearly and think are wonderful people. But don't teach my children that they will burn forever if they don't believe in an awful god that endorses slavery, sexism and goes against both science and reason.

 

[arthwollipot]

I don't question for a second that there are some wonderful Christians that are not hateful. In fact I have many Christian friends that I love dearly and think are wonderful people. But don't teach my children that they will burn forever if they don't believe in an awful god that endorses slavery, sexism and goes against both science and reason.

But you are holding their history against them, and the atrocities that people of other religions have done. Is that particularly fair or charitable?

 

[acbytesla]

But you are holding their history against them, and the atrocities that people of other religions have done. Is that particularly fair or charitable?

Absolutely! Definitely fair. But also definitely not charitable. I an not only judging the religions by the acts of the religious,. I am judging the religions by their written doctrines. I didn't make up the inquisition or the burning of those at the stake for heresy. I didn't make uo the burning of books in NAZI Germany or Alabama. I didn't make up the trials against Scopes or Galileo.

But all of these offenses pale in comparison to religion's biggest atrocity. That of being unadulterated bull.

 

[steenkh]

I'm sure there are Atheist individuals or groups who dedicate their lives to others like that, but I haven't run across any. I think genuinely good people tend to gravitate towards a religion, as at least something close to what they want to be surrounded by.

I can easily think that the number of of atheists doing such charity is less than nuns, because after all, atheists need a job for living.
But there are many social workers hired such purposes who are just as devoted. Whether they are Christians or atheists, nobody knows,

 

[Darat]

And baptized doesn't just mean the symbolic act of water. It means being reborn into a new life, which means playing by the new rules. If you don't play by them, your baptism was an empty show.

Many Christian religions deal with baptism at the start of life and it's a once only deal, no need to do it again.

 

[Darat]

In the tradition I grew up in, children generally couldn't be baptized. You had to basically be an adult, making an adult commitment with an adult understanding of what it entailed.

Eta: brw, I'm not saying they were right. I'm saying I understand what they were teaching, which is often at odds with popular belief about what they teach.

Out of curiosity which Christian religion was that, I thought most had christenings.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

I doubt that is the view of most scholars. In any case - the thread is about Jesus predicting the end of days and his return within the generation to whom he was speaking. That did not happen - or if it did it was a non-event.

You doubt wrong, as pretty much always. The only people who think any of the gospels were written before 70CE are those with a vested interest in upholding inerrancy.

 

[Poem]

Why should we be remorseful? What exactly did we do except not believe in the unbelievable? Oh, was it that we may lusted after a woman? That we coveted the possessions of another? That we cut our hair or beard? That we had sausage for breakfast? Or crab for dinner? Seriously, why should we turn our lives around? What is exactly wrong with us? Christians think man is broken and bad and need to see the doctor. Non-believers don't.

Let's forget God's supposed existence for a minute - you seriously think that humanity is just fine...isn't 'broken and bad' and doesn't need to 'see a doctor'?

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

I think the point I was making was that forgiveness does come with a price. In the case of God - the price is following Christ; with humans, we would and do perhaps look favourably on those who display genuine remorse.

But why do we need forgiveness for the things that god created us to do? If anything god needs to beg forgiveness from us for forcing us to do evil.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

You're referring to the Catholic/High Anglican baptism. I, and I think Thermal, are referring to adult baptism as practiced by modern evangelicals, which involves complete submersion in water.

In the US at least evangelicalism is rapidly moving away from only having adult baptisms. They're finding out that it's a good way to rapidly dwindle your flock if you don't get your claws in early.