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Merged Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care

You seem able to discern meaning in writing that nobody else can see, even the people who wrote it.


No need to feel bad about it. Nuance in the legal and medical world can be difficult to perceive unless you are used to it. It's not something that can be taught, as it is cultural. It's one reason people prefer the DAILY MAIL to anything that might tax them too much. They want to be told, rather than come to their own inference.
 
Anyway, Joshua Rozenberg, British legal commentator, used to be convinced of Letby's guilt, as you can see here:

But now, when presented with new evidence in the shape of the 14 experts report, he seems to have changed his mind - although perhaps I am reading a little too much nuance into this piece for the Law Society Gazette:
 
interpretations around the medical evidence (which I have no way to evaluate) also mirrors the ambiguous interpretations of the non-medical evidence just makes this case look even more suspect.

interpretations around the medical evidence (which I have no way to evaluate) also mirrors the ambiguous interpretations of the non-medical evidence just makes this case look even more suspect.
Yes the whole insulin business is looking very iffy.
 
One small correction, Dr Jayaram did note the rash at the time on Baby K and did see Letby at the cot side watching the baby desaturate without doing anything to help. Two separate parents also witnessed Letby in action, one came into the unit and saw her baby's mouth covered in blood. Letby pretended to be busy elsewhere and told the mother to go back to her ward and lied that the blood was just a normal result of the plastic naso-gastric tube (this was because the tubes are made of the type of flexible plastic that would not cut). In addition, she told the mother a consultant was on his or her way, and this was a lie, too. Also the mother heard her baby screaming from outside in the corridor. Neonatal experts who testified in court and were cross-examined averred it is not normal for neonates to scream (it's only later babies turn into all-night long screamers, LOL). Then there was Baby C, who was under another nurse but Letby was desperate to be with it (she wrote in a text to a colleague) to get over the death of Baby B, she claimed (who she had just killed a couple of days before). The proper nurse came back from the nursing station to find Letby standing at the door of this unit claiming that Baby C 'looked pale', even though it was in semi-darkness, On approaching the cot, Baby C was in the process of great distress (Letby had just popped in to see it, whilst the other nurse was away for a short period). The baby died later on in the morning despite intense efforts of doctors to resuscitate it. The first thing Letby did next day was search the parent on Facebook.

There were records of unnatural deaths, they were recorded as 'sudden and unexpected' because the pathologists or doctors concerned could find no natural cause to explain it. Given that Letby was free to harm babies for two years with only the consultants suspicious of her, it is a syllogism for the latest experts to claim, 'Ah but murder wasn't given as the cause of death'.
Sudden and unexpected deaths are most often natural. Heart attacks, strokes, pulmonary embolism can all cause sudden and unexpected deaths. In nearly all of the cases a natural cause was identified, which subsequently had to be changed when let by was convicted.

Haematologists would have nothing to do with measuring insulin, this would be a clinical chemist / biochemist. Any tests with a forensic consequence are routinely run in duplicate, as are many clinical tests. Unexpected results are often redone. It was noted early on that the insulin measurement although adequate for clinical use was not done to the standard a forensic test would have been.

Letby noted Dr Jayaram observing a rash but doing nothing to correct the desaturation. If Dr Jayaram was there it was his job to take charge and instruct Letby what to do. This is not the smoking gun you think it is. The parents did NOT witness Letby in action. From what you said they observed blood on the baby's face (baby c). They did not see what caused it. Again being outside in a corridor and hearing a scream is not witnessing Letby in action. Baby C is of course the baby who experts testified had been attacked when Letby was not present.
 
Sudden and unexpected deaths are most often natural. Heart attacks, strokes, pulmonary embolism can all cause sudden and unexpected deaths. In nearly all of the cases a natural cause was identified, which subsequently had to be changed when let by was convicted.

Haematologists would have nothing to do with measuring insulin, this would be a clinical chemist / biochemist. Any tests with a forensic consequence are routinely run in duplicate, as are many clinical tests. Unexpected results are often redone. It was noted early on that the insulin measurement although adequate for clinical use was not done to the standard a forensic test would have been.

Letby noted Dr Jayaram observing a rash but doing nothing to correct the desaturation. If Dr Jayaram was there it was his job to take charge and instruct Letby what to do. This is not the smoking gun you think it is. The parents did NOT witness Letby in action. From what you said they observed blood on the baby's face (baby c). They did not see what caused it. Again being outside in a corridor and hearing a scream is not witnessing Letby in action. Baby C is of course the baby who experts testified had been attacked when Letby was not present.
Mein Gott!! The rot has spread to the Torygraph.
 
I have listened to the press conference again, and also read the Private Eye reports. (I have a fair bit of respect for these Private Eye reports, as it was their Lockerbie one that set me on the right track in my investigation into that mess.)

I realise there are two points regarding the insulin results. First there is the obvious one that the standard immunoassay is not accurate enough for the purposes of this investigation. First because it is not particularly good at identifying synthetic insulin, and second because it's subject to interference from antibodies in the sample, and these babies had a lot of antibodies. This is the point that has been made by several groups looking into this, and from what I now remember is the point that I read Vincent Marks had made too. (So why "Deb Roberts" named him as having confirmed the insulin results I have no idea.) Prof Lee made that point quite clearly, but he also said that the normal c-peptide concentrations in neonates (or pre-term infants, I think this means infants who should not actually be born yet) are not the same as in adults or older children. He mentioned a particular expert who had been studying this for many years, but he didn't elaborate further on the reason for this. Given the level of expertise of the group as a whole I am inclined to take this at face value, although I'd like to know why this is.

The explanation as to why the hypoglycaemic baby's results were as they were, in the context of the i/v line infiltrating the tissues and the bolus administration of glucose and the i/v bags being changed when they were made absolute sense. The rest of it made perfect sense too.

Although I hadn't looked at the case in detail, and so wasn't prepared to debate it in this thread (I had enough abuse when I was using the forum to discuss the problems with the Lockerbie case, thankyouverymuch), my gut feeling from what I heard was that this was at bottom another Lucia de Berk case, probably triggered because of an unconscious desire to find someone to blame for the high neonatal mortality rate rather than facing up to the fact that it was due to substandard care. It could have been anyone, but a nurse who often took on extra shifts would be a prime candidate to be singled out. If you take all the deaths in the unit, then pick the ones where Letby was on duty at the time, then choose these ones to claim as suspicious, you've got your dodgy stats right there.

Several doctors seem to have had a thing going about blaming her, so when a baby was in trouble and she was around, that was automatically suspicious. As several professionals have said, if they genuinely suspected she was killing babies they behaved very strangely, not reporting her through proper channels, and letting her go on working. I don't think this was conscious, I think it was a mental defence mechanism against the unthought thought that they were responsible through their incompetence.

Once the police were involved, the next disaster was Dewi Evans. He's another Roy Meadow. He put himself forward as a volunteer to take on the case as soon as he heard about it. His name was passed to the police, who contacted him, and he came in to the police station. Apparently it was he himself, in a podcast, who boasted that he had identified definite evidence of murder in one of the babies' notes while he was having a cup of coffee. But these were babies who had had post mortem examinations done, and experienced pathologists had not found any such evidence. Some of them had been the subject of inquests which returned verdicts of natural causes, I believe. How on earth did these other professionals miss what Evans could see almost instantly over a cup of coffee?

I've done medical expert witness work in animal welfare and wildlife crime cases, and I've met his type. He's not even coy about it, boasting that he has only ever lost one case, when he was working for the defence, and that that one loss really rankles. My own late business partner could be a bit like that, but I saw him select the cases he was prepared to act for, and he had solid grounds for taking the position he did, even though he sometimes seemed to take the cases on as a personal crusade after that. I've done it myself in a couple of cases, where I was fairly outraged at the way someone had been treated. But Evans was manufacturing the case to order from a pile of straw and horse-droppings. He comes across as the professional expert witness who has made this a lucrative hobby of his retirement, relishing both the thrill of the chase and the money, and they're the most dangerous ones. Even when I was first exposed to some of the details of the case, the way he was prepared not just to make stuff up but to change his mind and find another explanation (that also involved foul play by Letby) struck me as quite bizarre.

Then there's the strange passivity of the defence. Several expert commentators have expressed surprise that the defence put up no expert witnesses of their own, but seemed mainly to be taking the "no case to answer" line - which is always dangerous, see Lockerbie again. Nobody has criticised the expertise or experience of the defence team, so it's a bit odd. As one of the other experts said, a barrister can stand up and try to shred an expert witness himself if he likes, but all the witness has to do is to say that he rejects that point of view, and without another expert to put the shredding case, the jury will only remember that the expert rejected the criticism. One expert actually approached the defence during the trial, but although they acknowledged her correspondence they never got back to her.

Another issue has been the sub judice rules. Letby was charged with another count of murder after the original convictions, which put the case back sub judice, and none of the experts who had doubts about the convictions were allowed to talk about it - whereas people were free to discuss the case from a guilter perspective all they liked.

It does make me wonder if there is a case for referral due to defective representation here, but the SCCRC and presumably also the CCRC are extraordinarily reluctant to refer on that ground. Evans needs to be stopped, but he himself has announced his retirement, presumably seeing the writing on the wall, so he'll probably get away with it.

The law needs a better system of expert witnesses who are truly impartial, rather than everything hinging on the enthusiasm of one guy the prosecution happens to favour. And it needs a better way of dealing with serious cock-ups than declaring, well, you had your chance, why didn't you call these experts in the first place?

At least Letby had serious experts come to her aid. I've done much the same thing with the Lockerbie evidence, but in that context I have no clout, I'm just some meddling busybody, so all they did was say "If this theory were accepted it would fatally undermine the Crown case" then declare that (a) they knew something I didn't know that allowed them to ignore my work, and no they weren't going to reveal what that was, and (b) they didn't think the circumstances amounted to defective representation either. So shut up and go away.

None of it is satisfactory, either side of the border. It need a thorough overhaul.
 
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This article by Christopher Snowden is well worth reading.

He also points out the absence of retired Canadian doctor, not registered in the UK, Dr Richard Taylor, from the new panel of 'experts'. If you recall, Dr. Taylor directly accused a doctor at COCH of having killed Baby O, who then died of shock, thanks to his incompetence.

This is the second press conference organised by Letby’s lawyer, Mark McDonald, in the past two months. At the last one, we heard from Professor Richard Taylor, a neonatologist who was inevitably described as eminent and who accused a doctor of accidentally killing Baby O with an inappropriate injection. He did not name the doctor but he was easy enough to identify. Taylor said that he would not be able to sleep at night if he was in the doctor’s shoes, knowing that he had sent a young woman to jail for life for a medical blunder of his own doing.

It was a powerful and emotive speech, but there was no sign of Taylor at this week’s press conference and neither of the neonatologists who prepared the report for him were mentioned.

The Devil's Advocates - Spiked

I can't help wondering whether the doctor so named as Baby O's killer has now taken legal action so Taylor's now effectively gagged.
 
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For the record Dr. Shoo Lee's 'eminent' expert from Uni Canterbury is described as a 'Bioengineer' professor. The independent expert witness - appointed by the Court and not advocating for either prosecution or defence - who testified in court under cross-examination, is likewise 'eminent' and a professor of paediatric endocrinology.
 
So? While you have neither experience or knowledge of the science, research or publishing situations like that, in specialised areas of science, are quite normal.

No, that's simply not true.

No. Pointing out you innumerable mistakes isn't really 'reprimanding' you. It's pointing out that you're repetitively spouting nonsense.

The ramblings of a right-wing contrarian, who vehemently opposes government regulation for smoking because it protects from teh effects of Covid 19, and thus has a tenuous connection to the Real World, does not outweigh medical and scientific expertise.
And seriously, any chance of a source for anti-Letby nonsense that's better than Living Marxism Mark 2

Like former Stalinist Peter Hitchens, per chance?
 
I see you're spewing drivel rather than addressing uncomfortable facts.
Again.
Grow up.

Oh dear, you are rattled. :sdl: Hoist by your own petard. Calling Christopher Snowden names instead of addressing the points raised in his article yet Peter Hitchens, right -wing Marxist Mark II contrarian extraordinaire is your go-to opinion provider.
 
Edited by Agatha: 
Edited response to post sent to AAH


None of Dr. Shoo Lee's 'panel of 14 experts' has had their 'reports' tested or corroborated. None of them has been cross-examined in a court of law. Dr Shoo Lee, miffed at having his 'expert opinion' rejected at the Court of Appeal, has simply written to his various chums in the medical world - three of whom are on the same board of directors, wrote up a new report for a journal without revealing his conflict of interest in the paper, just in time for Mountebank McDonald's new 'press conference' (to which only tabloid/columnist-style journalists were invited). His new paper is simply a review of the literature.

The fact is, his new designations of air embolism do not add anything to what has already been presented (cf CoA in July) and dismissed by the panel of senior judges as 'irrelevant'.

The claim that the convictions are all the fault of Dr Dewi Evans is also totally false. There were SEVEN main expert witnesses, which included a haemotologist, a radiographer, a pathologist, and an endocrinologist, et al.

The idea that Evans was the prosecutor is arrant ignorant populist nonsense. If that is what you believe then no wonder you think anyone who considers the trial to have been fair is somehow problematic. Yet you haven't provided any reasoning for your romantic rose-coloured spectacles view of Letby as being a victim of a sentimental miscarriage of justice.

Reason and logic beats sentimentality every time.
 
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Looks like Dr Shoo Lee's 'panel of 14 experts' largely know each other and publish and review each others papers.

This is a silly point to make.

He gathered together people he knew, sure. But that hardly means that just because they all know each other that they will all agree with each other.

Do you not happen to know people that you disagree with?

I have written papers with people who I disagree with on any number of things.
 
This is a silly point to make.

He gathered together people he knew, sure. But that hardly means that just because they all know each other that they will all agree with each other.

Do you not happen to know people that you disagree with?

I have written papers with people who I disagree with on any number of things.


ISTM the difference between Dr Dewi Evans and Dr Sandie Bohin, and Dr Shoo Lee's panel, is that whilst they were asked to review a large number of babies' medical notes by Chester Police (and Evans was referred via the National Crime Agency - he did not choose himself, as is claimed) Dr Shoo Lee has instructed his 'panel of experts' to find an alternative cause of death. That is known as 'witness shopping' and advocacy.
 
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