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Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

The genotype–phenotype distinctionWP was invented to put the genetic information on one side and how it is expressed on the other. At conception, the information we have is basically all genotype since the genetic information hasn't done much of anything yet to create an organism with observable morphology, development, and behavior.
NM, I was wondering if that was a typo.
 
I really don't think skeptics should believe images posted on the internet with no supporting links. That said, did you happen to notice that at least one condition is listed on both sides?
Did you notice that the one listed on both sides is X/XY mosaicism, and that in such a case, the classification of male or female depends on whether they're SRY+ or SRY-?

And since SRY triggers the development of either a female reproductive phenotype or a male reproductive phenotype... Mosaics still end up being either male or female.
 
Zygotes at conception are not female, they are undifferentiated. Claiming they are female is like claiming an unpainted car is red because might be painted red later.

This whole "everyone is female at conception" canard is just a stupid falsehood, contained in a stupid EO, written by stupid people, at the behest of a stupid president, being latched onto by stupid ideologues!

Its stupid all the way down!
 
The genotype–phenotype distinctionWP was invented to put the genetic information on one side and how it is expressed on the other. At conception, the information we have is basically all genotype since the genetic information hasn't done much of anything yet to create an organism with observable morphology, development, and behavior.
NA appears to have stated that the zygote has a female phenotype from conception, but no genotype until after differentiation. From this, I conclude the most likely explanation is that he (I assume from the name) has confused genotype and phenotype. I also note that Twitter is now full of people who appear to believe that the Y chromosome doesn't actually exist until 6 or 7 weeks after conception. I imagine Bluesky may be even worse.
 
Zygotes at conception are not female, they are undifferentiated.
(y)
Claiming they are female is like claiming an unpainted car is red because might be painted red later.
LOL :LOL:

I think most of us agree that we need to see how the phenotype plays out before saying whether an individual is male or female, but the (stupid) EO blithely ignores this issue. This is what happens when you send a clever lawyer to do a competent biologist's job.
 
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I don't think they're actually phenotypically female. The gonads are undifferentiated tissue, and the rest of the reproductive system hasn't formed. Fetus prior to ~6 weeks have primitive formations that can follow either a mullerian or a wolffian path - but not both ;).
But the NIH does. And I suspect they would sorta know better than us. And sure, after ~6 weeks, wonderful stuff happens. But that's not "at conception" as per the EO.
 
Did you notice that the one listed on both sides is X/XY mosaicism, and that in such a case, the classification of male or female depends on whether they're SRY+ or SRY-?
There isn't just one listed on both sides. These are listed on both sides:
46 XY SRY+ (actually twice in the male column, twice in the female column)
46 XX SRY-
47 XXY SRY+
45/46 X/XY SRY+
 
Zygotes at conception are not female, they are undifferentiated. Claiming they are female is like claiming an unpainted car is red because might be painted red later.

This whole "everyone is female at conception" canard is just a stupid falsehood, contained in a stupid EO, written by stupid people, at the behest of a stupid president, being latched onto by stupid ideologues!

Its stupid all the way down!
It's an epic Terminally Online "gotcha" moment. A legal opinion from the law offices of Reddit and TikTok, Esq.
 
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Zygotes at conception are not female, they are undifferentiated. Claiming they are female is like claiming an unpainted car is red because might be painted red later.
Hmmm. The NIH begs to differ, and clearly says so. But I like your analogy. :)
This whole "everyone is female at conception" canard is just a stupid falsehood, contained in a stupid EO, written by stupid people, at the behest of a stupid president, being latched onto by stupid ideologues!
Slight fix for you. The "female at conception" thing is not in the EO. It's a scientific point. The EO has failed spectacularly to take that into account in its wording, making themselves look stupid.
Its stupid all the way down!
The EO is, indeed, a bunch of biblical hooey written by cross-eyed lunatics dressed up as legislation. It would not even pass as a first-year law student's submission. Stupid all the way down, and all the way back up.
 
And the NIH.
The NIH does not say a zygote is phenotypically female at conception (a zygote at conception does not have any sexual characteristics aside from XX or XY chromosomes, which are part of the genotype). It says the gonads of a fetus until 6 or 7 weeks are undifferentiated and the genitalia (not the gonads) are phenotypically female. None of this implies that we are all female at conception.
 
Here's how. Please keep up.
Some of us have done a bit more than "keep up", and are also not MAGA folks (& I note the disinformation around this topic did not help the Anti-Trump/MAGA cause). That phrase in the linked article is poorly put. The external genitalia superficially look more female (prior to differentiation), but that's not how we define female, nor will it ever be - see my post (and immediate follow-ups) here.

ETA - Also see Elaedith's post above- which is succinct and well put


Please (all), quit using disorders when attempting definitions. Following that logic, we can't say anything about any group of organisms and classification/cladistics is impossible (i.e. there are deleterious mutations/accidents that affect every feature of an organism). It's also special pleading for both organ system and species (and we know male and female are equivalent/homologous in other mammals and vertebrates.



Also - for Steersman - the gonad/gamete definition I posted in the link above will also be preferred over current gamete production status, due to its greater utility, predictive value, and the importance of sex in the life history of an organism. If you want to change that, my recommendation would be to try and do it from within the field - get a PhD in repro/Dev bio, then do a post-doctoral fellowship in a related field (note one of these labs should focus on comparative aspects - I could recommend some PIs) and see if your opinion changes or you can convince others at meetings, etc.




Finally, some of the focus here seems to be on not on defining sex, but rather whether we treat males with Androgen insensitivity syndrome (or other disorders that cause them to appear superficially female) with regard to female activities and spaces - as noted, some of those folks don't know about their condition until puberty or their parents tell them. While I'm fine with those folks being treated as female, it's important to note that they're not and therefore likely to face rejection in potential long-term relationships because of it (which is the false promise at the heart of the trans movement).
 
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Okay, but doesn't that sound like the selection was arbitrary? Indeed, in the case of "Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome" the label is "Male" whereas for "Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome" the label is female.
PAIS is probably one of the most controversial ones.

CAIS is SRY positive, but the receptors don't work. So during fetal development, the signal to do down the wolffian pathway is *sent*, but it's never *received*. In the absence of that reception, the reproductive anatomy develops to be phenotypically female. CAIS results in the fetus developing a uterus, fallopian tubes, cervix, and vagina, with the urethral opening separated from the vaginal opening. They do NOT develop a penis, vas deferens, prostate, or scrotal sac. All of the elements of a female reproductive system are present, but the tissue in their gonads is testicular and sterile.

PAIS, on the other hand, ends up with the signal being *sent* and *partially received*. Most PAIS will end up with a definitive male reproductive phenotype, although it's often not fully developed, and sometimes they end up with vestigial bits left over from the early fetal stage.

It can be controversial because depending on how garbled the signal, you end up with more or less development of the male phenotype. But they will end up with at least SOME male development.
I'm not going to get on board any train here, but the idea that someone slides from male to female depending upon hormonal insensitivity does suggest in this case that there is something "spectrum-y" going on here.
It's the insensitivity during early fetal development that is critical - as that's what prompts the mullerian or the wolffian pathway. It's not spectrumy, because there's no "in between" pathway.

In addition, I see the words "Mosaic" on two of the labels. I don't know much about this, and am willing to know more, but it seems that theoretically this could result in someone being able to produce both large and small gametes (even if they are unlikely to be functional). That again suggests some form of genuine intersex condition, no?
So when we get to mosaics and chimeras, things get weird - and I don't understand the distinction between them well enough to explain it. One has to do with the genes being mixed up within the same egg, and I think the other has to do with two separated eggs merging and the genetic material ending up mixed after that. But it's very confusing to me.

It's hypothetically possible for someone with whichever comes from the merging to end up with one ovary and one testis... but the likelihood of both of those being functional is vanishingly small. IIRC, there's been one single documented case of a person with ovotesticular disorder having been autopsied and finding that there was some suggesting that they may have ovulated at some point during their life - but they lacked a uterus or fallopian tubes or anything else that is related to a female reproductive phenotype, and the individual had fathered children with their active sperm - which definitively makes them male.

At this point, however, we're way into the realm of hypotheticals... like, it's hypothetically possible for conjoined twins to share a brain and have two predominantly separate and independent bodies. Sure, it could maybe happen given extraordinarily unlikely circumstances, but I'm not taking bets on it, and I'm definitely not going to support policies that define humans as having a spectrum of torsos because of that vanishingly small possibility.
In addition, that one labelled "Turner syndrome". Could someone walk me through why that person is female?
Turner is female because... there is no SRY gene present at all. There's not even a second X chromosome! Turner females develop entirely female reproductive systems.

As a general note... there are many conditions that fall under the grouping of Disorders of Sexual Development. That grouping really just means "something went wonky in the development of your reproductive system". But the overwhelming majority of people with DSDs are unambiguously male or female - every bit of their reproductive anatomy phenotypical for their sex. Within humans, something like 0.2% have a DSD... and within those with DSDs, it's like 0.1% that have anatomies that are ambiguous enough to even need more than a cursory glance at birth. 5-ARD is one of those, ovotesticular disorder is another, and I forget which others. The reality is that less than 0.002% of humans need any kind of testing to determine if they're male or female. Most DSDs end up presenting at puberty or later. Some get caught at puberty, because the person's body doesn't develop as expected - females don't menstruate or develop breasts, males don't see elongation of the penis or begin ejaculating. In a lot of cases, however, it doesn't get caught until they're entirely adult and find that they're sterile.

My godchild has a condition that doesn't usually get talked about in this context, but is considered a DSD. They have Kallman syndrome. Their karyotype and phenotype are completely normal for a female - but their pituitary gland is malformed. The pituitary plays a critical role in puberty and in hormone production post-puberty. In their case, their pituitary just completely failed to send any signal to start hormone production. Their adrenal worked just fine, so their long bones grew rapidly, and they grew fine leg, armpit, and pubic hair... but that was it. Their endocrinologist put them on standard issue birth control pills, and that provides enough hormones to allow for reproductive maturation as well as bone density accretion... but they're unlikely to ever have children. Interestingly - their condition was discovered because they had congenital anosmia - complete inability to smell anything. And it turns out that during early fetal development, the lump of goo that turns into the pituitary makes a pit stop on its way to the brain to drop off nasal bulbs - and theirs skipped that stop. It's one of the only indicators for Kallman that can show up prior to puberty.
 
And phenotype female. Differentiation occurs well after conception.
Except... no. Prior to differentiation, there is NO reproductive anatomy in place. There are primordial structures for both the mullerian duct and the wolffian duct, nothing else. Before differentiation, one could argue that a fetus is *potentially* both male and female... but this is kind of in the same way that a zygote is *potentially* a human, or that a nasal bulb is *potentially* a pituitary gland.
 
I think that's what I have been saying. Glad you are catching on. ;)

The author(s) of the EO have clearly not done their research properly. If they meant genotype, that means after differentiation, which is over a month after conception. So they should have specified that more clearly. But the words "genotype expressed after sexual differentiation" doesn't have the same biblical ring to it in the document as "AT CONCEPTION!"
Genotype exists at conception. Genotype is the entire package of genetic material in the DNA. Karyotype is also present at conception, that's the chromosomal complement that guides development from the moment the sperm breaches the egg wall. Karyotype is a subset of genotype.

Phenotype develops during gestation, and sexual differentiation occurs around the 6th week. It's actually a pretty early development, and a really critical process. If sexual differentiation does NOT occur, the fetus will terminate; without differentiation it's nonviable.
 
The genotype–phenotype distinctionWP was invented to put the genetic information on one side and how it is expressed on the other. At conception, the information we have is basically all genotype since the genetic information hasn't done much of anything yet to create an organism with observable morphology, development, and behavior.
This is backwards. Phenotype has entirely to do with anatomic morhpology, which doesn't exist at conception at all.
 
Finally, some of the focus here seems to be on not on defining sex, but rather whether we treat males with Androgen insensitivity syndrome (or other disorders that cause them to appear superficially female) with regard to female activities and spaces - as noted, some of those folks don't know about their condition until puberty or their parents tell them. While I'm fine with those folks being treated as female, it's important to note that they're not and therefore likely to face rejection in potential long-term relationships because of it (which is the false promise at the heart of the trans movement).
Do you think the EO from the current American administration makes sense with regard to AIS individuals?
 

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