Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

[smartcooky]

Does that change my point, though?

Yes it does, because "intersex" is too broad. Its like regarding a motocycle and an 18 wheeler as the same thing because they are both vehicles.

I really don't think skeptics should believe images posted on the internet with no supporting links.

The supporting links have been posted long ago. You can look up every one of those karyotypes and you will find the chart is 100% correct

That said, did you happen to notice that at least one condition is listed on both sides?

You're talking about 47 XXY SRY+ ? Well the problem for you is, they are different in different contexts and circumstances.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)79762-2/abstract

Klinefelter syndrome (47, XXY) with male phenotype is the most common sex chromosomal abnormality. It is believed that SRY (sex determining region on Y) is the major gene necessary to induce the undifferentiated bipotential gonadal primordium to develop as testis. Recently, several SRY-box-related (SOX) genes have been identified on autosomes. Mutations in the SRY or SOX gene have been implicated in sex reversal. We report an individual having 47, XXY chromosome constitution, normal SRY, SOX9, and ZFY genes and yet with a female phenotype.​

So an individual with 47 XXY SRY+ karyotype is more likely to be male, can be female, but they are still either one or the other... NOT both, NOT neither and NOT something in between as @bobdroege7 would have you believe

This exactly illustrates my point as to why "intersex" is no longer used as a scientific terminology... its it simply insufficient to describe the complexity.

 

[Steersman]

Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah, whatever.

Forget about anything after conception. There's no argument there. Because Trump's legislation refers to "at conception".

Trump's legislation is not at all what are the biological definitions for the sexes.

And at conception, we humans are all female.

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. To have a sex is to be producing either large reproductive cells or small ones. Which doesn't happen until puberty.

Gamete competition, gamete limitation, and the evolution of the two sexes

Abstract. Males and females are a fundamental aspect of human reproduction, yet procreation is perfectly possible without this division into two sexes. Biologic

web.archive.org

You might try getting your head out of the "sand" and do some reading and thinking with it.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Trump's legislation is not at all what are the biological definitions for the sexes.

Now you're getting it!

The legislation is how people are legally treated by the US government based on a particular biological definition of gender. However the definition they are using to define a person's gender is not at all what are the biological definitions for the sexes. It's not a matter of science. It's a matter of ignorance.

All your scientific definitions in the posts above I have no quarrel with. Good for you. But they are not what is in this legislation. So while they are perfectly sound, we must ignore them.

What IS in the legislation stipulates that all Americans are, by their legal definition as written, women. This isn't me saying this. It's Trump's legislation.

As for extraction of craniums from granular quartz crystals, that's really what Trump's fifth-rate legal team need to do. They are pathetic, really.

 

[d4m10n]

You're talking about 47 XXY SRY+ ?

No, I'm talking about PAIS.

The supporting links have been posted long ago.

Can you find the link which explains which PAIS individuals are males at conception and which ones are females at conception?

Indeed, in the case of "Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome" the label is "Male"

Also, female, depending on degree of masculinization.

 

[Elaedith]

Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah, whatever.

Forget about anything after conception. There's no argument there. Because Trump's legislation refers to "at conception". And at conception, we humans are all female. So if your legally assigned US gender is what you are at conception, you are therefore all women. Congratulations, madam!

They've made a serious boo-boo because they are SO scientifically illiterate. Perhaps they should have consulted a book or something. Sexual differentiation, to whatever gender that happens to be, occurs about 6-7 weeks after conception, i.e. about a month and a half. So a better version of their ridiculous document would not be at conception, but after sexual differentiation.

How is a zygote 'phenotypically female' at conception? A zygote isn't even phenotypically human. However, it has genes which predetermine one of two pathways of sexual differentiation, except in the case of extremely rare DSDs.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Whoopsie, for all the apologists.

Sex Begins in the Womb - Exploring the Biological Contributions to Human Health - NCBI Bookshelf

Here's how. Please keep up.

 

[d4m10n]

Here's how. Please keep up.

Why are you answering a question about conception with a link about what happens several weeks later? Early "fetal genitalia" which "are the same and are phenotypically female" aren't something which happens at conception, so they aren't relevant to the EO.

 

[Elaedith]

Here's how. Please keep up.

Are you claiming a zygote has female genitalia?

 

[bobdroege7]

Yes it does, because "intersex" is too broad. Its like regarding a motocycle and an 18 wheeler as the same thing because they are both vehicles.


You're talking about 47 XXY SRY+ ? Well the problem for you is, they are different in different contexts and circumstances.



So an individual with 47 XXY SRY+ karyotype is more likely to be male, can be female, but they are still either one or the other... NOT both, NOT neither and NOT something in between as @bobdroege7 would have you believe

So you think a person can be male, female, or either.

Your argument supports the sex is a spectrum position.

 

[d4m10n]

So you think a person can be male, female, or either.

Your argument supports the sex is a spectrum position.

I don't think that second sentence follows from the first one.

For something to be a spectrum (in the sciences generally) there needs to be a quantifiable variable which runs from less to more, e.g. wavelengths of EM radiation.

If we're going for a loose colloquial definition of spectrum, there needs to be at least a qualitative variable that runs from less to more, e.g. from bald to hairy.

 

[smartcooky]

So you think a person can be male, female, or either.

Your argument supports the sex is a spectrum position.

No. You are deliberately mischaraterizing what I said (which is what you always do then you have no valid arguments or evidence to support your untenable position)

I SPECIFICALLY said "So an individual with 47 XXY SRY+ karyotype is more likely to be male, can be female, but they are still either one or the other... NOT both, NOT neither and NOT something in between"

That is a binary position in which I SPECIFICALLY exclude anything other than MALE or FEMALE determination.

Not only do you lie about what others say, you have difficulty with English comprehension too, just like your pal Steersman!

 

[smartcooky]

I don't think that second sentence follows from the first one.

Correct, but when you're wrong (as he is) and you know it (as he does), and you have no valid arguments (as he doesn't) but you won't back down, you have to lie, draw bat-**** crazy conclusions and mischaracterize what others say in order to stay in the game.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Why are you answering a question about conception with a link about what happens several weeks later? Early "fetal genitalia" which "are the same and are phenotypically female" aren't something which happens at conception, so they aren't relevant to the EO.

Did you even read the link provided?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Are you claiming a zygote has female genitalia?

No. I'm not "claiming" anything. Would you like me to explain it to you in smaller words?

 

[angrysoba]

No, I'm talking about PAIS.

Can you find the link which explains which PAIS individuals are males at
conception and which ones are females at conception?
Also, female, depending on degree of masculinization.

Indeed. Seems there is some kind of definitional whack-a-mole here. The EO which defines male and female at conception is fine if we are basing the definitions on chromosomes alone. Yet the chart (with PAIS and CAIS) and that claim about Klinehoffer syndrome seems to be about phenotypes derived from gene expression and hormones. Yet others talk about gametes.

It seems to me that, at least in a small number of human individuals, there is a genuinely difficult area to draw the line, where there could be a justifiable argument for saying someone is male, female, both or neither, and that the decision about where to draw the line, in some extreme cases, is somewhat arbitrary.

(This is, of course, separate from claims about self-ID and claims to be able to compete in sports etc…)

 

[d4m10n]

Did you even read the link provided?

Did you?

It mentioned "chromosomal sex in the zygote at the moment of conception" but makes no mention of your shocking claim that they are all female.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Did you?

It mentioned "chromosomal sex in the zygote at the moment of conception" but makes no mention of your shocking claim that they are all female.

You're funny. Here. Let me show you a third time. Go find a comfy seat and sit yourself down so you can concentrate for a minute and not sealion.

During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female. After approximately 6 to 7 weeks of gestation, however, the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome induces changes that result in the development of the testes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We've got another live one on Twitter, a woman who is asserting that everyone with a Y chromosome is male and everyone without is female, insisting that Swyer's women are men and DLC men are women. It's a hell of a shouting-match and I bowed out early on. It's the same bone-headed semantic argument as Steersman makes, just over a different point.

DLC = ?

All I can come up with right now is "downloadable content" and I missed that add-on to my game.

 

[d4m10n]

Let me show you a third time.

Why are you answering a question about conception with a link about what happens several weeks later? Early "fetal genitalia" which "are the same and are phenotypically female" aren't something which happens at conception, so they aren't relevant to the criteria laid out by the EO.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That said, the guidance is surely strict here, every individual is sorted into one of two categories as of the moment of conception. This sorting is not particularly pragmatic, though, since it requires inferences from genetic analyses which are not nearly universally performed.

That's kind of a silly qualm though. There's no need at all for genetic analyses to be universally performed. There's only a call for analysis when the answer isn't abundantly clear, or when there's sufficient reason to doubt.

99.998% of humans have completely unambiguous reproductive systems, and their sex has been accurately noted during a prenatal ultrasound. There's no good argument that somehow we need to do expensive genetic testing on everyone to figure out their sex.