Does Hillary have a chance in '08?

Lost in all this is the obvious question: If Hillary can't get the nomination, who's going to be the one that beats her? So far, the only answer to that question has been from Luke, who suggests Mark Warner, a one-term (term-limited) governor with a track record as a tax-hiker.

Virginia is a red state, and Warner got elected here by positioning himself as a moderate. As has been observed here repeatedly, party primaries are decided not by the moderates of a party, but by the red-meat true believers. That's why a true moderate like Joe Lieberman never got out of the single digits last time out, floundering around with the likes of moonbat Dennis Kucinich and race-baiter Al Sharpton - he wasn't far enough to the left to suit the Democrats who vote in primaries.

I don't think Hillary can get nominated, but I also don't see who beats her in the primaries. Maybe the Dems end up not nominating anybody and the Repubs end up nominating a ticket of Eric Cartman and General Zod and winning in an electoral sweep.

Okay, just kidding with that last bit...
 
BPSCG said:
Lost in all this is the obvious question: If Hillary can't get the nomination, who's going to be the one that beats her? So far, the only answer to that question has been from Luke, who suggests Mark Warner, a one-term (term-limited) governor with a track record as a tax-hiker.
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Actually, hgc suggested Warner first. And Clark.

I put my money on Warner.
 
BPSCG said:
Yeah, but who believes them?
Why?
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He's a Governor, for one. :)

And Clark is a loon.

And being a tax raiser is not a bad thing in the Democratic Party.

And I might be wrong, but I think Virginia ended up with a surplus during his reign.
 
Ed said:
It does not matter. And let me suggest, that if every time a democratic possible is discussed the conversation reverts to Bush bashing and pointing out how candidate x is better on some basis, the Democrats will pull another Chappaquidik. They will certainly deserve to loose.

Starting now, today, on this board, democrats should ignore Bush and treat him for what is is beyond disputation: a lame duck. Even if Bush were Hit.. I mean Pol Pot it makes not one fartskin of difference in '08. You guys have to keep idiots (who might make you feel good but serve no useful purpose otherwise) like Moore, Carter (lately) Gore (lately) Kennedy Sharpton Jackson and the other leftie lights of the party in Gitmo. You cannot divorce yourself from real people who wince whenever one of these loons starts some selfrightous blather.
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Thanks for the suggestion, but I think Bush-bashing makes a hell of a lot of sense in '08. If he is as unpopular then as he is right now, then connecting the Republican nominee to him and his policies will be a big selling point for Hillary or whoever.
 
hgc said:
Thanks for the suggestion, but I think Bush-bashing makes a hell of a lot of sense in '08. If he is as unpopular then as he is right now, then connecting the Republican nominee to him and his policies will be a big selling point for Hillary or whoever.
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Yep. But they have to be careful Hillary or whoever also didn't sign off on the same policies.

Don't want another "I was for it before I was against it" bungle.
 
manny said:
I think he got a bad rap on that one -- it's kind of his version of Gore's "invented the internet" thing. He did not diagnose, he questioned the diagnosis. And he didn't do it based solely on the videotape. (transcript of relevant speech)
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Persistent vegetative state, which is what the court has ruled -- I question it. I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office here in the Capitol. And that footage, to me, depicts something very different than persistent vegetative state. One of the classic textbooks that we use in medicine today is called "Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine." In the 16th edition, which was published just this year, 2005, on page 1625, it reads, "the vegetative state signifies an awake but unresponsive state. These patients have emerged from coma after a period of days or weeks to an unresponsive state in which the eyelids are open, giving the appearance of wakefulness." I'll stop quoting from the classic internal medicine textbook, but one last sentence, "in the closely related, minimally conscious state, the patient may make intermittent, rudimentary vocal and motor responses."
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Affidavits in a case like this have to be viewed with an eye to the agenda of the people that create them. In any event, he based his opinion on a video.
 
Luke T. said:
And I might be wrong, but I think Virginia ended up with a surplus during his reign.
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Yes, a surplus of $544 million for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2005. $400 million of that surplus was run up before the tax increase took place.

Warner running for governor in 2001:
“The old style of politics, of saying anything to get elected, is not what we need. Instead, as a businessman, I will clean up the budget mess in Richmond, restore accountability, and — no matter how many times my opponent may say otherwise — I will not raise your taxes.”
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At $1.1 billion, Virginia's "rainy day fund" is close to its statutory limit. In other words, the surplus is so high that if we run another one this year, Richmond will have to either repeal the increase and send the taxpayers rebates, or find some cool new way to spend the money.

I wonder which... :mad:

And new Governor Tim Kaine hadn't been governor two weeks before he proposed another big tax increase. The Republican-controlled legislature beat it back, but Kaine says he'll revisit the issue.

I can hardly wait... :mad:

In short, I think Warner is very vulnerable on the budget and taxes issue.
 
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Meanwhile, back at the opening post:

My own feeling on presidential elections is that sex appeal is very important, possible the detemining factor: Reagan had more than Carter, Bush more than whoever, Bill C was such a hunk that women of both sides voted for him. GW is cute- in comparison to Kerry's horse face. Hillary's sex appeal won't even get the Lesbian vote. Women won't vote for her, men fersure won't. Condi, on the other hand.... Maybe McCain/Rice in 2008? Though McCain is too left for me, and why be famous for getting shot down? I dunno from democrats.
 
Luke T. said:
Yep. But they have to be careful Hillary or whoever also didn't sign off on the same policies.

Don't want another "I was for it before I was against it" bungle.
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Not too worried about it. There's plenty of room to criticize will still agreeing a this or that. Hillary will strike a pro-war pose, and give strong critique on incomptence, debt, taxes, etc.

Incidentally, I disagree with the notion that Dems must suck it up on Bush and security/WOT. I personally would make the case that Iraq was a disaster due to incompetence, unnecessary in the first place and actually hurt our overall security. But I don't think Hillary will swim in those waters.
 
Ed said:
Affidavits in a case like this have to be viewed with an eye to the agenda of the people that create them. In any event, he based his opinion on a video.
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True, but he did not make a diagnosis, which is what the popular accusation is.


casebro said:
My own feeling on presidential elections is that sex appeal is very important, possible the detemining factor: Reagan had more than Carter, Bush more than whoever, Bill C was such a hunk that women of both sides voted for him. GW is cute- in comparison to Kerry's horse face. Hillary's sex appeal won't even get the Lesbian vote. Women won't vote for her, men fersure won't.
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Without commenting either way on the value of your hypothesis, I find Senator Clinton attractive.
 
hgc said:
Incidentally, I disagree with the notion that Dems must suck it up on Bush and security/WOT. I personally would make the case that Iraq was a disaster due to incompetence, unnecessary in the first place and actually hurt our overall security. But I don't think Hillary will swim in those waters.
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I agree completely. But you watch, when the inevitable happens, and another terrorist attack happens on US soil, the anti-Iraq war crowd will be blamed. This will make no sense whatsoever...and will be totally effective.
 
hgc said:
Thanks for the suggestion, but I think Bush-bashing makes a hell of a lot of sense in '08. If he is as unpopular then as he is right now, then connecting the Republican nominee to him and his policies will be a big selling point for Hillary or whoever.
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Within limits. Hillary is a bit close to some of the more questionable things GW has done. She voted the war powers act and the Patriot act. I suppose she could bitch about Iraq but that opens the door to her husband's inaction. I don't see a lot of percentage in the finger pointing strategy. Does she have any legislative triumphs? What bills has she sponsered?

I think the dems have to stand up and make a positive case for why anyone should vote for them. Completely issue oriented. If GW f'ed up in Iraq, just give what you would do. Pointing fingers will seem petty and remember, GW was elected by somebody out there and telling people, in effect, you are dumb is not going to win hearts and minds.
 
BPSCG said:
Yes, a surplus of $544 million for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2005. $400 million of that surplus was run up before the tax increase took place.
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Warner inherited the office with a deficit, didn't he?

In the war of sound bites, all that will matter is that he came into office with a deficit and left behind a big surplus.
 
Mark said:
I agree completely. But you watch, when the inevitable happens, and another terrorist attack happens on US soil, the anti-Iraq war crowd will be blamed. This will make no sense whatsoever...and will be totally effective.
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Unless the southern border can be involved even in the most arcane way. If that happens the republicans are toast en masse. So might Manny since he lives in NY:D
 
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