Assassination of United Healthcare CEO

[3point14]

So do insurance companies. It's called insurance. People seemed to have forgotten the premise and think their usage spend should match their coverage costs yearly otherwise they are getting ripped off. It fantastical thinking masquarading as virtue.

I don't think people think their usage should match their expediture. I think people believe that they should receive the heathcare they're paying premiums for. And it seems that people believe that they don't.

That perception may be in error, but there seem to be an awful lot of stories showing that necessary treatment, per the treating doctor, is being declined.

 

[Donal]

So do insurance companies. It's called insurance.

They stand between us and our doctors and charge a fee. We don't need them.

People seemed to have forgotten the premise and think their usage spend should match their coverage costs yearly otherwise they are getting ripped off. It fantastical thinking masquarading as virtue.

No, that's reality. When you escape Death Cult Capitalism, you'll understand.

 

[3point14]

A modern remake of The Terminator where Kyle Reese goes back in time to prevent Sarah Connor's claim from being denied.

A remake of Breaking Bad were there's decent universal healthcare would be a lot shorter...

 

[dirtywick]

I don't think people think their usage should match their expediture. I think people believe that they should receive the heathcare they're paying premiums for. And it seems that people believe that they don't.

That perception may be in error, but there seem to be an awful lot of stories showing that necessary treatment, per the treating doctor, is being declined.

it's hard to justify part of that expenditure being $50m for one guy, particularly given the nature of the business and the methods by which they are operating. i mean, the guy's management led to an ai mass denying claims they should have covered as a means of cost savings and was rewarded with an unfathomable amount of money.

to say that should be allowed is one thing i don't agree with, but to act like you don't understand why people see a problem with it and that it's some kind of delusional thinking is barely worth acknowledging at this point. it's been explained. this is not a necessary cost for healthcare to function, that's the delusion.

 

[Ranb]

Just to add, both of those are almost completely silent, especially the Welrod and Sten carbines developed from it.

At 123 decibels, the Welrod is not almost completely silent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welrod#Operation I've shot a suppressed Sten, also clearly audible. A Welrod does better when pressed against the victim. Yuck.

Welrod - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Thermal]

It was plainly a burner if he discarded it.

Obviously. Still completely unnecessary ,and goddamned foolish to toss on the ground where he would be handing evidence to investigators.

And, he may have needed the Citi app to use a Citibike.

That would be incredibly stupid, which is my point. The app requires a credit card for payment and each bike is GPS tracked, because they don't want people stealing them. That's an electronic trail of breadcrumbs for investigators. Also, police said they misreported the Citibike thing. He was on a plain old mechanical bicycle.

Or maybe communicate with whoever hired him.

You do that before and after, not during. "During" is when you need to be unplugged and untrackable.

Or maybe he called the victim as he walked out to confirm he had the right guy.

Oh, good idea. More phone record proof, now on the victims own phone, linking you directly to the murder.

There's any number of uses for a smartphone that don't involve social media.

I'm obviously being facetious about social media. The obvious, obvious point is that you unplug and leave zero evidence behind you if you don't want to be caught.

So, you leave your personal phone at home and buy a burner

Which I already said. But again, you don't take the burner with you at game time, and you certainly don't leave it behind to be found.

Maybe he wasn't sure how long he'd have to wait. Maybe chewing on a snack and drinking some water helps him blend in a little more.

No, it forces him to pull the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ mask down, showing his face again, and leave possible DNA and prints on the bottle and wrappers.

I mean, this ◊◊◊◊ is not ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ complicated. Bad guys are not domesticated little knuckleheads who can't function without a goddamned phone for 20 minutes while they commit their major crimes. Unplug, don't show your face around cameras (or at all as long as you are not drawing additional attention by hiding yourself)). And for Christ sake, change your outerwear when you commit the crime. Be wearing a different jacket before and after you do it, but not while you do it. And nothing distinctive like that oddball backpack. That's how they found him on video in Central Park; that weird backpack stuck out.

Speaking of Central Park, he is on video entering the park on bike with the backpack, and leaving without it 15 minutes later. So two possibilities: he's a raging nitwit who likes to leave maximum evidence behind him, or he is planting misleading stuff, which would account for the sticking-out-like-a-sore-thumb backpack. Not likely, but longshot possible.

 

[Thermal]

No it isn't it's an automatic.

Sez you and some random YouTuber, both with dead zero evidence. The police disagree, and have investigators in Connecticut where the closest guy who sold one is.

 

[Andy_Ross]

At 123 decibels, the Welrod is not almost completely silent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welrod#Operation I've shot a suppressed Sten, also clearly audible. A Welrod does better when pressed against the victim. Yuck.

Welrod - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've fired a Welrod Mk2 in .32ACP, with new disks the first shot is completely silent and the next two or three are almost silent.
I have also used a suppressed Sten and Stirling.
Again, with new disks the first shot is silent and the next two or three almost silent., the loudest thing you hear is the bolt slamming home.

They are designed to fire just a few shots to take out sentries, not for any kind of sustained use.

 

[rdwight]

they could run at a 1% margin and everyone involved will still make an insane amount of actual dollars, particularly since the larger profit margin comes at a pretty large amount of actual harm being done in the process

Is 1% your target for investments as well? I get what you think but if the entire health insurance industry lowered to 1% vs 6%, total would be 14.6 billion profit vs 88. A third of a percent of our total healthcare spending per year. Compared to around 1.9% now. It is not an excessive number, and a majority of people are happy with their current coverage. Using it as justification for murder is where I get annoyed. There is no great crime here that needs retribution.

unfortunately the argument that excessive ceo pay is a necessary cost of healtcare is a lot worse than it is novel

I dont get the fixation on CEO pay from fortune 500 companies. Averages out to 17.7 million a year. A lot of money, and when they fail it's an extraordinary overpay but we are talking about hundreds of jobs as if it affects anything in a country of hundreds of millions. Their pay. Not their company direction, which affects far more. But then we are talking different things.

Really? Can you find my post where I did that? Take your time.

I take it back. I read your post about them retreating from the proposed policy quickly as a positive but that was my interpretation.

I don't think people think their usage should match their expediture. I think people believe that they should receive the heathcare they're paying premiums for. And it seems that people believe that they don't.

That perception may be in error, but there seem to be an awful lot of stories showing that necessary treatment, per the treating doctor, is being declined.

Fair but the vast majority believe they do. I have no love for UHC. My wife has spent hours fighting for services before, going through the appeals process, winning and restarting the process after the allotted amount was used and a new denial. The product can improve for sure. But it's being used as justification for murder.

People throw around numbers like "tens of thousands of americans were killed this year by health insurance companies denying claims, he has blood on his hands!!" We should calm the nonsense down a bit, especially when it's being pushed for justification and encouragement of additional murders.

They stand between us and our doctors and charge a fee. We don't need them.

No, that's reality. When you escape Death Cult Capitalism, you'll understand.

Ok. But their contribution to the problem of high costs is miniscule. Being used as a scapegoat for the entire industry does not help us reach the single payer people want.

 

[3point14]

Fair but the vast majority believe they do. I have no love for UHC. My wife has spent hours fighting for services before, going through the appeals process, winning and restarting the process after the allotted amount was used and a new denial. The product can improve for sure. But it's being used as justification for murder.

I suspect this man is actually responsible for some deaths.

But you're right, extrajudicial killing should not be celebrated.

That it is though, is very telling.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I don't think people think their usage should match their expediture. I think people believe that they should receive the heathcare they're paying premiums for. And it seems that people believe that they don't.

That perception may be in error, but there seem to be an awful lot of stories showing that necessary treatment, per the treating doctor, is being declined.

I'm more inclined to think that sick people should receive the healthcare I'm paying for, so long as I can get it too when I need it.

 

[Ranb]

I've fired a Welrod Mk2 in .32ACP, with new disks the first shot is completely silent and the next two or three are almost silent.
I have also used a suppressed Sten and Stirling.
Again, with new disks the first shot is silent and the next two or three almost silent., the loudest thing you hear is the bolt slamming home.

They are designed to fire just a few shots to take out sentries, not for any kind of sustained use.

Thanks for the info. I have a suppressed Ruger MKII that is about as loud as my 575 fps air pistol. To my ear anyway.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

the killing of Shinzo Abe lead to an investigation into the Unification Church and its corrupt ties into Japanese politics, and its practice to beggar members for its enrichment. Undoubtedly, it has been a net positive for Japan.

If this killing brings the spotlight to the industry and its practices, and leads to investigations, prosecutions and stricter regulations and supervision, that would be a net positive for the US, even when we included the breach of norms and laws.

 

[Thermal]

Ultimately, whether it's a CEO of a health insurer, or a presidential candidate getting shot at, or a cop killing an unarmed man, or the Capitol being trashed, it's all kind of the same thing. A lot of people have had it, and want to see the place burn. People should start taking notes. A lot of the population is closer to the line than they think.

 

[dirtywick]

Is 1% your target for investments as well? I get what you think but if the entire health insurance industry lowered to 1% vs 6%, total would be 14.6 billion profit vs 88. A third of a percent of our total healthcare spending per year. Compared to around 1.9% now. It is not an excessive number, and a majority of people are happy with their current coverage. Using it as justification for murder is where I get annoyed. There is no great crime here that needs retribution.

it's billions that could and should be covering people's healthcare

I dont get the fixation on CEO pay from fortune 500 companies. Averages out to 17.7 million a year. A lot of money, and when they fail it's an extraordinary overpay but we are talking about hundreds of jobs as if it affects anything in a country of hundreds of millions. Their pay. Not their company direction, which affects far more. But then we are talking different things.

you don't get it or you don't agree with it? not agreeing is fine but there's not much to get and i've already explained the reasoning

edit

also i'm not justifying murder, i'm criticizing your defense of the necessity of the level of profit health insurance companies are making and what they're doing with it

 

[JayUtah]

I know people who have worked for UHC and have attested to how fanatically they pursue a denial of claims and how intentionally byzantine they make policies and payment practices. I'm not at all surprised that this violence happened, although I think you have to object to any such killing on principle. On a scale from zero to Marie Antoinette, I think we still have rational means to address the problem.

I just find it ironic that a high claim rejection rate and obscene levels of profit are excused under the guise of unfettered capitalism when the whole concept of insurance is ostensibly socialist. In theory, risk and cost are pooled and balanced against pooled premiums, with the insurer charging a fee for doing that work. The upside is that you are covered for things you would not otherwise be able to afford, at other people's expense. The downside is that you may be paying for something you yourself don't need, but which benefits someone else.

Giving that agent a profit motive is problematic enough. Generating that profit as a difference between policy payouts and policy premiums creates a moral hazard. But for now the economics a kind of messy, and the government policy that allows and encourages this are deplorable. Sigh...

 

[Andy_Ross]

Thanks for the info. I have a suppressed Ruger MKII that is about as loud as my 575 fps air pistol. To my ear anyway.

The Welrod is only supposed to be fired a couple of times, it was designed as an assassination weapon and designed when the magazine/grip is removed to look like a piece of random toolbox junk. There were examples of the Mk2 and the Mk1 at the Armourers school at HMS Excellent. The Mk1 is a later version although earlier in designation for some reason. It is chambered for 9mm and is longer and louder. The silencing is done with solid rubber washers that the first round ruptures so subsequent rounds are never as quiet and get louder as the washers deteriorate.
Silenced Sten is similar and intended for single shots although will fire auto. Silenced is the term used in service rather than suppressed. They have to be tuned by an armourer for each batch of ammo that's going in to them and depending on weather conditions (temp and humidity) and altitude where they are to be used. The weight of the bolt and spring are tuned to ensure the bolt has enough energy imparted by the special subsonic ammo to go back far enough to catch the sear otherwise they will 'run away'.

 

[Thermal]

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NYT reporting that a guy in Connecticut who recently bought one of these oddball guns has been cleared of involvement.

It really is weird that they don't have a name attached to this guy yet. How many people have dead zero people in their lives who would know what you look like but don't watch any news?

 

[crescent]

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NYT reporting that a guy in Connecticut who recently bought one of these oddball guns has been cleared of involvement.

It really is weird that they don't have a name attached to this guy yet. How many people have dead zero people in their lives who would know what you look like but don't watch any news?

Who says they don't watch any news?

Chances are there are plenty of people out there who know exactly who the guy is, but who agree with his motivations and are happy to not say a word. This killing really touched a live wire in American culture.

 

[Thermal]

Who says they don't watch any news?

Chances are there are plenty of people out there who know exactly who the guy is, but who agree with his motivations and are happy to not say a word. This killing really touched a live wire in American culture.

That's theorizing an awful lot of willing conspirators after the fact to a murder. Surely we all know at least one ...non-murder supporting... person? It seems the hostel people recognized him and quickly dimed him out, turning over their surveillance footage showing his face. He hasn't run across a single other person in his life that doesn't support vigilante executions?