Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not suggesting women "look after" anyone. I'm saying whatever is behind "no transsexuals in the women's toilet" is more to do with cultural and individual hang-ups than an interest in the safety of women.

It isn't "no transsexuals in the female toilets", it's "no males of any sort in female single-sex spaces or services".

Also, maybe you should talk to some females and get our perspectives rather than coming in here mansplaining to us that we're just being hysterical and overreacting, and that this thing that does not affect you at all is no big deal for us.

What's the position of the TERF lobby on trans men in the women's toilet? E.g., what if they were wearing really good "manface" but needed to use the tampon machine?

TERF is a slur, please refrain from using it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gays have been exposed to violence by men for centuries. So have been transsexuals. Especially in male bathrooms.

Maybe we can look at some statistics on how much threat trans women are to cis women in save spaces before we just assume that they are as dangerous as cis males or other cis women?

Thread reboot #973.5

Seriously, this has been addressed YET AGAIN within just the last few pages!


ETA: Just so we're very clear here, you are advocating that males are so precious to you that you think the appropriate solution to male violence against males is to TRANSFER THAT RISK ONTO FEMALES. You are advocating to reduce the risk of injury to a small number of males but increasing the risk of injury onto all females.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

They're traditionally reserved for women because men rape women overwhelmingly more than women rape other women

I think it was probably the reverse. I.e., men didn't want women in their toilets / rooms / social clubs.

It all started to go wrong when women started flashing their ankles at us.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

It isn't "no transsexuals in the female toilets", it's "no males of any sort in female single-sex spaces or services".

Also, maybe you should talk to some females and get our perspectives rather than coming in here mansplaining to us that we're just being hysterical and overreacting, and that this thing that does not affect you at all is no big deal for us.

TERF is a slur, please refrain from using it.

What's your position on trans men in the women's toilet? E.g., what if they were wearing really good "manface" but needed to use the tampon machine?

 

[Manger Douse]

I think it was probably the reverse. I.e., men didn't want women in their toilets / rooms / social clubs.

It all started to go wrong when women started flashing their ankles at us.

I think its more likely women didn't want to get raped and I don't think this is a subject a man should be making jokes about

 

[Manger Douse]

What's your position on trans men in the women's toilet? E.g., what if they were wearing really good "manface" but needed to use the tampon machine?

You've asked and been answered this question already

 

[smartcooky]

I thought it was quite funny given the bizarre situation presented.

There is nothing funny about women being attacked, harassed or accosted by one of these womanface cosplayers in a place where they are vulnerable. That YOU find it funny tells everyone here everything they need to know about you.

I did do some searches online and couldn't find anything like that happening. I.e., multiple people in a public shower complaining about another individual masturbating and the people making the complaint being accused of a crime.

There might be plenty of formal, technical & factual information on the internet, but informal information such as crimes rely on human reporting, and often go unreported

You won't find anywhere on the internet (other than in the pages of this forum and one other) any information on how one of my daughters was assaulted by a transwoman in a public toilet, or how he copped a face full of home-made pepper spray for this trouble. You also won't find the story of how a step daughter of mine was being abused by her partner, and how I, and a small group of friends, planned and executed an operation to help her escape from him. The internet is not the repository of all knowledge

As one of the better known members here has said "Never underestimate the power of the internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
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[smartcooky]

What is it about public toilets that offer significant protection against violent sexual predators? Isn't it just as likely a women using a unisex toilet might have the chance a man will help her out dealing with a violent sexual predator?

Vulnerability and isolation. A woman in a public toilet is sitting down, alone is a cubicle, behind a flimsy door, with her knickers down around her ankles.

 

[smartcooky]

I am for not demonising a whole (sub-)group of people for their mental illness / sexual preference just because a small minority of them are violent.

It has been demonstrated to you numerous times here by Rolfe and others that members of that subgroup have been shown to be at least FIVE times more likely to commit sexual assaults than non-members of that group. Now add in the males who are not even members of that sub-group, but claim they are to use it as a cover for perpetrating sexual assaults, using the magic words "I am a woman" to escape consequences of being in a place trying to carry out a sexual assualt, and the situation is made even worse than it already is.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Vulnerability and isolation. A woman in a public toilet is sitting down, alone is a cubicle, behind a flimsy door, with her knickers down around her ankles.

So why does putting a sign on the door that reads "Women" make her any more safe?

I'm reminded of the scene in Blazing Saddles where the bad guys are riding through the desert and are slowed down by a toll booth in the middle of nowhere.

In the real world bad people are not going to be inhibited by signs on doors.

 

[theprestige]

So why does putting a sign on the door that reads "Women" make her any more safe?

I'm reminded of the scene in Blazing Saddles where the bad guys are riding through the desert and are slowed down by a toll booth in the middle of nowhere.

In the real world bad people are not going to be inhibited by signs on doors.

What makes her more safe is the legal backing to evict a man from the womens' space, including police action on her behalf if the man refuses to leave when asked.

Historically, it's that threat of police involvement and legal sanction that has kept sex pests and other bad actors out of womens' spaces. Trans rights advocacy seeks to turn this on its head, and threaten legal sanction of the woman, if she challenges the man's standing to be there. That is what makes women less safe. It also has a chilling effect on the entire premise of safe spaces.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I think its more likely women didn't want to get raped and I don't think this is a subject a man should be making jokes about

I know you are wrong on the first count and I disagree on the second.

Go find some evidence that shows female toilets were introduced because women didn't want to get raped.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

What makes her more safe is the legal backing to evict a man from the womens' space, including police action on her behalf if the man refuses to leave when asked.

Historically, it's that threat of police involvement and legal sanction that has kept sex pests and other bad actors out of womens' spaces. Trans rights advocacy seeks to turn this on its head, and threaten legal sanction of the woman, if she challenges the man's standing to be there. That is what makes women less safe. It also has a chilling effect on the entire premise of safe spaces.

Nonsense. Predators want to isolate their victims. I don't think the additional jail time for being in a women's only space if the intent is to commit a sexual assault is going to deter anybody.

What makes individuals vulnerable is being alone. A women using a toilet in a deserted multi-story car park at night is no more vulnerable if the sign on the toilet door is unisex, male or female.

 

[Manger Douse]

I know you are wrong on the first count and I disagree on the second.

Go find some evidence that shows female toilets were introduced because women didn't want to get raped.

After you explain why they're called 'safe spaces' and tell me safe from who exactly.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I like this idea. Let's have unisex public toilets and toilets for biological females.

I could be talked into supporting that... although to be fair, I also think that males deserve to have intimate spaces free from females too. Perhaps males aren't so sensitive, but I would imagine that there are plenty of males out there who don't really want to be standing at a urinal, member in hand, when a female wanders through. I would imagine that is magnified if we're talking about showers.

 

[Ziggurat]

I know you are wrong on the first count and I disagree on the second.

Go find some evidence that shows female toilets were introduced because women didn't want to get raped.

You know, I don't really care why they were introduced. But I do care about the justification for keeping them. And keeping females protected from males while in a vulnerable space is really the best reason to keep them that we have.

If you want to do away with sex segregation completely, just say so. And say why.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Or perhaps groups who run safe spaces could make a judgement call as to whether a person requesting access should be let in given who is currently in that safe space. There's no need to bring sex into it at all.

Consent isn't transferrable. They need to be clear about who is and is not allowed to use those space up front, so that customers can make an informed decision. It's been a problem with rape and domestic violence shelters over the past several years, where female victims are told that the shelter is available to "women" but nobody bothers to specify that "women" includes "women with penises".

These spaces are separated on the basis of sex for some pretty good and fundamental reasons. They've never been separated on the basis of gendery feels. If you have someone up-line who is making "judgement calls" on when to let some people of the opposite sex use the space, then the space is unisex.

 

[Ziggurat]

I could be talked into supporting that... although to be fair, I also think that males deserve to have intimate spaces free from females too. Perhaps males aren't so sensitive, but I would imagine that there are plenty of males out there who don't really want to be standing at a urinal, member in hand, when a female wanders through. I would imagine that is magnified if we're talking about showers.

Males have much less safety concerns regarding females than vice versa, and modesty is secondary to safety. So the situation is absolutely not symmetric. But I agree with you that modesty isn't nothing even for males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If I've read that correctly you believe a person having a wank in a public shower while ogling other naked people in there is going to be let off and the people who complained about it arrested for a hate crime.

Is this something you saw on Pornhub or read about in an erotic story and are getting confused with reality?

Darren Meragee.

Went into the female side of a Korean spa, joined a group of completely nude females and children. Proceeded to exhibit their tumescent penis to all and sundry. And when the female customers of the spa complained that it was unacceptable for males with penises to be in the same part of the spa, let alone while semi-engorged... The female customers were told that Meragee had every right to be there, and that they were being transphobic bigots for not wanting to be exposed to naked male bodies against their will.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm a 71 year old asexual woman who has, and have always had, zero interest in porn or erotic stories. I was sexually abused by my own father when I was a child, so I know exactly what some men are capable of.