Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ivor the Engineer]

What on earth are you talking about? Nobody "requests permission" to enter the female changing room at the gym. The privacy, dignity and safety of the women who use it depends entirely on their being confident that if, say, a male joins them in the female showers and starts masturbating whilst ogling their naked bodies they need only raise the alarm, and the staff will eject the offending male and quite possibly call the police. That's all that keeps the flashers, voyeurs and other undesirables out - the possibility of being arrested. If TRAs get their way, women will know that the offending male only has to claim to be trans and the staff (and the law) will take his side - and they are the ones who might end up being arrested for hate crimes. And there will no longer be any such thing as female safe spaces, and a lot fewer women going to the gym.

If I've read that correctly you believe a person having a wank in a public shower while ogling other naked people in there is going to be let off and the people who complained about it arrested for a hate crime.

Is this something you saw on Pornhub or read about in an erotic story and are getting confused with reality?

 

[theprestige]

Gays have been exposed to violence by men for centuries. So have been transsexuals. Especially in male bathrooms.

Maybe we can look at some statistics on how much threat trans women are to cis women in save spaces before we just assume that they are as dangerous as cis males or other cis women?

All we're asking is for you to solve the problem of fiat self-ID.

 

[Rolfe]

I thought we showed the statistics just before I went away for the weekend. Trans identifying males being imprisoned for sexual offences at about five times the rate of other men and 566 times the rate of women. Do these things get magically wiped whenever the thread goes on to a new page?

We've also explained at length that it isn't merely - or probably even primarily - about safety. It's about modesty, dignity and comfort. Girls and women do not like or want men in their private spaces. Who is Ivor, or indeed any man, to declare they have to accept them?

I've just got back from Glyndebourne, one of the most upmarket venues in the country. I can't imagine any of the patrons assaulting any of the other patrons. There are a couple of gender neutral toilets there. Time and time again I saw women swerve away from them and go to find the actual Ladies. I've heard women in the Ladies talking about how they just walked round the building rather than go into the gender neutral loo right by the door to the auditorium. It's not about safety, it's about not being comfortable sharing an intimate space with men. Any men.

 

[theprestige]

It's not only about safety.

 

[Trausti]

I like this idea. Let's have unisex public toilets and toilets for biological females.

The TRAs will then want access to those biologically female restrooms. They won't achieve their autogynephilic high without it.

 

[Pixel42]

If I've read that correctly you believe a person having a wank in a public shower while ogling other naked people in there is going to be let off and the people who complained about it arrested for a hate crime.

There have already been reports of such things happening, despite the small number of places where self ID is the law, but it only needs to be a possibility for women to lose confidence (and a small percentage of men to gain confidence) in the result of them raising an alarm, which is all that's currently stopping it happening very often under what is otherwise essentially an honour system.

Is this something you saw on Pornhub or read about in an erotic story and are getting confused with reality?

I'm a 71 year old asexual woman who has, and have always had, zero interest in porn or erotic stories. I was sexually abused by my own father when I was a child, so I know exactly what some men are capable of.

 

[smartcooky]

If I've read that correctly you believe a person having a wank in a public shower while ogling other naked people in there is going to be let off and the people who complained about it arrested for a hate crime.

Is this something you saw on Pornhub or read about in an erotic story and are getting confused with reality?

This is a vile, disgusting and very creepy thing to say. You ought to be ashamed of yourself... but looking at the nature of your "contributions" to this topic so far, I know you probably won't be.

 

[angrysoba]

Which raises the question: If you don't think transwomen need women's sports, jails, or toilets, do you think there's anything they do need? Preferred ponouns? An "F" on their driver's license?

What's the point of identifying as a woman, if you don't even get to do woman stuff?

Good question. For the most part, those are protections. I think it is obvious that the protections are there specifically to protect women from biological men. Therefore it makes no sense to unlock a back door to the prisons, bathrooms and women's sports.

But does that mean that some men, apparently some of them even in early childhood, not really believe themselves to be born in the wrong body?

No, I think that many of them are genuine about that. So it is not a case of "getting to do women stuff", it is just a case of them really, genuinely believing they are.

I have no understanding of why they think this, but I think that policy around jails and sports and toilets can be separate from that...

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Are you saying that gay males should be allowed to use women's spaces because they aren't safe in the male ones? Even though that means women losing the right to object to any male in any female space because there is no way to tell if a man is gay or not? And we have to prove that this poses a danger to women before we are allowed to object? That seems to be the only logical inference.

no, the logical inference is that there should just be unisex single bathrooms, each with sink and toilet and locks.

And it's a bit of an odd thing that bathrooms are supposed to have replaced the Women's Parlor / Smoking Room as "Safe Spaces", given that they never have been anything of the sort except by consensus.

 

[Samson]

This is a vile, disgusting and very creepy thing to say. You ought to be ashamed of yourself... but looking at the nature of your "contributions" to this topic so far, I know you probably won't be.

I don't agree with your analysis of Ivors post.
The knowledge at large of the horrors involved with these dangerous inversions of the work women did to make their lives outside the home work as easily as men's, is woefully lacking.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't agree with your analysis of Ivors post.
The knowledge at large of the horrors involved with these dangerous inversions of the work women did to make their lives outside the home work as easily as men's, is woefully lacking.

Are you saying he doesn't have the knowledge to understand how vile and creep his comment was?

 

[Rolfe]

Good question. For the most part, those are protections. I think it is obvious that the protections are there specifically to protect women from biological men. Therefore it makes no sense to unlock a back door to the prisons, bathrooms and women's sports.

But does that mean that some men, apparently some of them even in early childhood, not really believe themselves to be born in the wrong body?

No, I think that many of them are genuine about that. So it is not a case of "getting to do women stuff", it is just a case of them really, genuinely believing they are.

I have no understanding of why they think this, but I think that policy around jails and sports and toilets can be separate from that...

I don't care what they "really believe", or indeed what story they tell people and indeed themselves to try to make their paraphilia seem acceptable. They're still men.

If you don't understand why they think the way they do, you should probably read up about autogynaephilia.

 

[angrysoba]

I don't care what they "really believe", or indeed what story they tell people and indeed themselves to try to make their paraphilia seem acceptable. They're still men.

If you don't understand why they think the way they do, you should probably read up about autogynaephilia.

I know what that is, but I don't think all men who really believe they are women fall into that category. Some of them have full surgery and marry men. This is old school trans-sexuals I am talking about like whatsername on Coronation Street, for example.

 

[Samson]

Are you saying he doesn't have the knowledge to understand how vile and creep his comment was?

I am saying the world at large and particularly in NZ has not been party to the type of indepth conversations that are so excellent on this forum.
I would rather let Ivor respond, but I think your take on what he said was harsh, there was nuance somewhere to be explored.

 

[Pixel42]

I know what that is, but I don't think all men who really believe they are women fall into that category. Some of them have full surgery and marry men. This is old school trans-sexuals I am talking about like whatsername on Coronation Street, for example.

Jan Morris is the example I always think of, they're rare but they definitely exist. I'd love to know what her opinion about the currect controversy would have been.

 

[smartcooky]

I am saying the world at large and particularly in NZ has not been party to the type of indepth conversations that are so excellent on this forum.
I would rather let Ivor respond,
but I think your take on what he said was harsh, there was nuance somewhere to be explored.

I don't. Telling someone that facts they know to be true are based on some confusion of reality with a porn fantasy is both rude and inappropriate.... and AFAIC, completely unacceptable!

 

[Samson]

I don't. Telling someone that facts they know to be true are based on some confusion of reality with a porn fantasy is both rude and inappropriate.... and AFAIC, completely unacceptable!

The relevant post was asking if it is really true that the criminal has become the victim, the victim the criminal.
Yes it is true.
Ivor was simply seeking clarification.
Go back and check.

This is the world where countless careers have been vaporized and friends lost forever.
It really happens.

Consider that mortgages are the critical path, and the west has been totally lost.
It is true, we have been played something shocking by the wokesters who will jail for misgendering (correct gendering), coming to a town near you. If you missed the criminalising of misgendering the NZ law commission is hell bent on enacting, I made my submission.

Trump is a terrible person of course.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I thought we showed the statistics just before I went away for the weekend. Trans identifying males being imprisoned for sexual offences at about five times the rate of other men and 566 times the rate of women. Do these things get magically wiped whenever the thread goes on to a new page?

We've also explained at length that it isn't merely - or probably even primarily - about safety. It's about modesty, dignity and comfort. Girls and women do not like or want men in their private spaces. Who is Ivor, or indeed any man, to declare they have to accept them?

I've just got back from Glyndebourne, one of the most upmarket venues in the country. I can't imagine any of the patrons assaulting any of the other patrons. There are a couple of gender neutral toilets there. Time and time again I saw women swerve away from them and go to find the actual Ladies. I've heard women in the Ladies talking about how they just walked round the building rather than go into the gender neutral loo right by the door to the auditorium. It's not about safety, it's about not being comfortable sharing an intimate space with men. Any men.

Everyone loves relative risk. Makes much better headlines than absolute risk.

Thank you for your in-the-field observations of irrational human behaviour.

 

[jt512]

We're living in a Monty Python sketch from 1979.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860404515050033524

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

This is a vile, disgusting and very creepy thing to say. You ought to be ashamed of yourself... but looking at the nature of your "contributions" to this topic so far, I know you probably won't be.

I thought it was quite funny given the bizarre situation presented.

I did do some searches online and couldn't find anything like that happening. I.e., multiple people in a public shower complaining about another individual masturbating and the people making the complaint being accused of a crime.