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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

For the upteempth time, I have a ton of sympathy for what you are arguing, but I am very uncomfortable with *how* it is being argued. To me, it mirrors the exact same language employed by those who "are calling for a return to the (good ol) days", you know, when blacks were servants, women could not vote, and we quietly (or not so quietly) killed the maginalized folks in society. That mindset is all too prevalent right now, and when people say "well I'm not one of them" I wonder how often they consider how their language emboldens and supports that mentality.
You could hardly call me a right winger. I am a strong believer in universal healthcare, social welfare, a living wage, phasing out fossil fuels in favour of renewable energy, and protection of the environment (I financially contribute to both Greenpeace the Sea Shepherd Society). I oppose mining, clear-felling of forestry and financial bailouts for corporations and banks. I have never voted conservative in my entire life, and I never will. They stand for everything I despise.

Regardless of any of that, I will always agree with truth, both when I see it, and no matter who speaks it. This is especially the case for scientific truth. The position on transgender issues is one aspect of of left-wing progressive politics that I enitely disagree with. As far as I can see, it is conservatives who are speaking the truth on this issue, and I'm not going to shy away from this truth just becasue its conservatives who happen to be speaking it‎
 
What you're missing here is that we started out being nice, we started out being careful of feelings and considerate. If you doubt me - go back to the inception of this thread and read through them.

Almost every single one of us in this thread - as well as almost every 'gender critical' or 'biological realist' or just plain 'women are human too' person out there started out from a position of care and trying to find a reasonable middle ground in this. Almost all of us had prior experience with the rare transsexual who seemed to be trying really hard to fit in and not make waves and not make females feel intimidated. And every one of us still feels a core of empathy for those few people who are truly going through some ◊◊◊◊ and trying to cope.

But we've now had nearly two decades of persistently being told that we're transphobes and bigots and right wing propagandists and deluded and all sorts of other denigrating names... all for the entirely reasonable position of "Hey, I think it's a bad idea to put genitally intact male sex offenders into a female prison" or "Hey, I'm not really okay with having penises dangled in front of young females in the female showers and changing rooms" or "You know, I think female rape survivors should be allowed to have same-sex clinicians do their medical exams" or "It seems kind of unfair that males are winning female athletics competitions, that displaces females from their own sports" or "I feel a bit miffed seeing the media laud the highest paid female CEO when that person is actually a male" or "My grandma needs help bathing and has requested that the person cleaning her vulva be female, and we're all a bit put-out that the caregiver is clearly a male complete with stubble and a bulge in their way-too-short tight-fitting miniskirt" and "Eleanor Roosevelt put this rule in place decades ago that gives females equal representation in NY and this obvious male whose penis we can clearly see through their dress has taken one of those places, that's not equal representation for females" and similar such very common sense notions.

And we've repeatedly witnessed males in dresses show up to verbally abuse, threaten with rape, and physically assault females who gathered to discuss whether or not there might possibly be a conflict between self-declared gender and sex-based rights. We've seen males with signs calling for females who object to their presence to be punched, raped, or murdered for daring to say no to their demands.

We started out being nice. We started out trying to find a compromise. And what we have experienced has been harassment and threats and a complete rejection of anything that allows females to retain safety and dignity from males.

So while I understand your desire for "tone" here, I not-so-respectfully don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about "how" it's being said. We tried nice, and we have suffered for a quarter of a century only to have yet another male come along and chide us for not being "nice enough" to the people who insist upon violating our boundaries and threatening us.
:bigclap
 
Trans women will never become true women, and their anxiety and depression over not being women will never go away.

They will never have a period, they will never go through menopause, they can never become pregnant. They can never become a true woman.
 
Maybe it's time to try treating the anxiety and depression, rather than trying to treat mental illness by mutilating the body.

Although, since most of them are autogynaephiles, the whole thing is a bit moot.
 
Are there any examples of women being assaulted in bathrooms/locker rooms by transgender women? Or is this really just a crazy fantasy with no basis in fact?
 
Oh for crying out loud. It's not even that long since examples were given in this thread. Multiple cases all over Twitter yesterday, posted by people who thought that was what "Transgender day of remembrance" ought to be about. And it would be good to stop calling men "transgender women". It gives the impression that these people are some sort of woman, and so that they have some right to be there, when they aren't and they shouldn't have.

This web site documents all convictions of trans-identifying people, I imagine the bathroom assaults are in there somewhere.


Just a page back in this thread I posted this one. (This person is six feet five, by the way.)

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I can't lay my hands on that Twitter thread right now, but even I was shocked when I saw them all listed together like that. Particularly shocking were the school ones, where trans-identifying boys were attacking and even raping girls in the school toilets, and the school authorities were covering it up and not calling the police, just moving the boy to another school where he could do it again.

But, you know, this isn't just about sexual assault and rape. Women should have the right to private spaces where males cannot enter for the simple, kind reasons of modesty, dignity and comfort. Women of particular religious groups should have the right to the male-free bathing facilities required by their religion. Women who have suffered sexual assault should have the right to a space where they can perform intimate tasks without suddenly finding themselves in the presence of a male. (We all should, come to that.)

Men - we don't want you around while we're peeing, pooping, changing sanitary towels or tampons, dealing with messy menstrual accidents or having a miscarriage. Or when we're helping each other fasten a dress or straighten a bra strap or even just having a giggle about that dorky idiot who just came on to us at the bar. Just butt out, and take your friends with the womanface fetish with you.
 
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Do you mind if I quote this in the Cass Report thread?
Sure, go ahead. I actually think we should have a thread just for discussing the medical evidence in general, not specific to the Cass report. It is really more appropriate under science and medicine than social issues.
 
The one that really horrifies me is the sheep study. The effects on the young sheep should have been a huge warning flag to everyone, but all that happened was a tirade of vilification of the authors because - they were vets!

It beggars belief that no animal safety studies, never mind efficacy studies, were done on these drugs before handing them out to physically healthy children.
 
Another interesting observation on the subject of whether trans-identifying men are actually dangerous.


This is why I'm slightly sceptical of the assertion that many of the "transwomen" convicted of murder, rape and sexual assault have simply adopted the identity to get an easier time in prison. I think it's innate in a lot of them. Autogynaephilia isn't invariably associated with sexual offending, but there's quite a high correlation.
 
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The proportion of "transwomen" in the population who are in prison for violent or sexual offences is way higher than the proportion of non-trans-identifying men who are there for similar offences.


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Similar figures are derived from data from Scotland, New Zealand and Queensland, Australia.

While I was looking for that I also found this article.


Trans-identifying men are the safest people on the planet. They're murdered not just far less frequently than women, but far less frequently than other men (acknowledging that men are the most likely people to be murdered, as well as to be doing the murdering,) All this lamenting about their vulnerability and marginalisation and the so-called high rates of violent crime against them is pure fairy-dust. They are very unlikely to be the victims of violence, and disproportionately very much more likely to be the perpetrators of sexual violence.

Why are you so keen on minimising all this, and advocating for these men to be legally permitted in women-only spaces?
 
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There is something that the human race used to understand almost instinctively. There is something wrong with a man who desires to wear women's clothes. There's something about it in one of the early books of the Old Testament, I think Deuteronomy, so men doing that and it being recognised as Not A Good Thing goes back a pretty long way. It may be something wrong purely in the sense of a sexual kink, which may do nobody any harm so long as it's confined to consenting adults in private. It may be something wrong in the sense of mental illness. But quite often, it's something wrong in the sense that such men are very much over-represented when it comes to violent sexual crime.

In the past, public opprobrium kept at least some of it in the closet. Whether it was Richard Wagner being absolutely mortified when his milliner sold her records of his orders for pink frilly bloomers to the press, or the Lumberjack Song. Laugh at them, look askance at them, let them know that this isn't something that's socially acceptable.

Now, though. these men have been given carte blanche to parade their sexual fetish in public and they're being lionised as "stunning and brave". I do not think this is a positive development.
 
Why are you so keen on minimising all this, and advocating for these men to be legally permitted in women-only spaces?
By "these men" did you mean the ones in prison or the ones who don't do sex crimes?

(I know there is a third group out there, but it feels like you've generalized somewhat hastily from the first to the second.)

There is something that the human race used to understand almost instinctively. There is something wrong with a man who desires to wear women's clothes. There's something about it in one of the early books of the Old Testament, I think Deuteronomy, so men doing that and it being recognised as Not A Good Thing goes back a pretty long way.
Any time you find yourself quoting moral advice from people who stoned gays to death, maybe take a step back and rethink.
 
I thought that might stir things up a bit. I'm advocating for ALL men not to be legally permitted in women-only spaces. Partly because the ones who do sex crimes don't have a handy label on their foreheads, but mostly because of all the previously-described issues about privacy, modesty, decency and comfort.

I'm pointing out that the very class of men Hercules seems particularly keen to portray as being suitable to be given this legal right, that is the class of men who want to go there, is precisely the class of men which is most problematic as regards safety.
 
By "these men" did you mean the ones in prison or the ones who don't do sex crimes?

(I know there is a third group out there, but it feels like you've generalized somewhat hastily from the first to the second.)
Start with giving your opinion on the ones in prison, and work your way out from there.
 
I can't lay my hands on that Twitter thread right now, but even I was shocked when I saw them all listed together like that. Particularly shocking were the school ones, where trans-identifying boys were attacking and even raping girls in the school toilets, and the school authorities were covering it up and not calling the police, just moving the boy to another school where he could do it again.

I can't find the Xwitter thread you are talking about, but I've seen it and I agree... the sheer number of reported cases of transwomen attacking, assaulting and raping girls and women in bathrooms is staggering - it makes a lie of the "no evidence its happening" claim being made by some media outlets. This type of news rarely if ever makes it into progressive media because it runs counter to the preferred narrative. The media really have been captured by this TRA nonsense, especially in Australia and New Zealand.

Here are a couple of articles I found about such attacks... IIRC, both were listed in that Xwitter thread


 
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