What did Democrats do wrong?

[Chris_Halkides]

CNN reported, "Senate Democrats did try to pass a border security measure this year, with Biden’s support, as part of a broader foreign aid package. The bill was negotiated on a bipartisan basis, but Trump attacked the measure and it failed on the floor. Even so, swing-district Democrats say any push on a border bill needed to happen long before this February, just months before the election." The democrats should have said that they tried but that the republicans played politics.

What the democrats should have said regarding the economy is that Trump's plans would make the deficit bigger, drive up inflation, and make the middle class worse off. Both of these problems are what I call kitchen table issues.

 

[suren]

Overestimated the level of pragmatic thinking, the intelligence and morality of americans.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

How could Biden negotiate for cheaper foreign oil, it's a free market.

he could have freed Iran from all sanctions for trading oil - would have made oil prices plummet.
The Sanctions are mostly in place to let Saudi Arabia and US oil producers rake it in.

 

[dirtywick]

speaking of pragmatic, the pragmatic thing to do now would be for biden to institute the tariffs, pressure the fed to drop interest rates, and close the border and let trump spend his term trying to un-◊◊◊◊ his own policy proposals

 

[The Don]

Big ol' heaping helping of Truth, right there. When the economy is bad, people change leadership.

Except the economy isn't bad.

However the deep, and worsening, inequalities in the US means that a substantial proportion of people are worse off despite the economy as a whole being healthy.

Then again there are a lot of people who are better off now than they were at the start of Biden's term but who don't feel it. In some cases it's because they were worse off when inflation was at its worst but have now caught up. In other cases it's because they use a very narrow set of criteria (for example the price of gas) to determine whether they are better off. Then again some people are comparing now to some time (possibly exaggerated) in the past (maybe before they had kids or some other major life event).

It's difficult to campaign against "feels".

 

[The Don]

How could Biden negotiate for cheaper foreign oil, it's a free market.

No it isn't. The whole purpose of the OPEC cartel is to ensure that the market for oil isn't free.

Of course in the face of this, there's nothing any US president can do to change the price of oil for any sustained period. If the US ramps up production, OPEC will reduce theirs to maintain prices.

 

[Darat]

No it isn't. The whole purpose of the OPEC cartel is to ensure that the market for oil isn't free.

Of course in the face of this, there's nothing any US president can do to change the price of oil for any sustained period. If the US ramps up production, OPEC will reduce theirs to maintain prices.

Not understanding - the suppliers decide the oil they want to produce and sell, the buyers decide whether to buy oil at the current price point. That is a free market.

 

[Thermal]

Except the economy isn't bad.

However the deep, and worsening, inequalities in the US means that a substantial proportion of people are worse off despite the economy as a whole being healthy.

Dude. The economy is not healthy if artificially spiked prices don't correct. If they get high and stay high, you just got stuck in the artificially inflated state. Correction is a part of market health.

When oil prices spike, the market eventually corrects and they return to their previous projected path. They don't spike to $5/gallon then everyone throws up their hands and says "whelp, this is the new normal", but that's what's happening here. Taint healthy.

Then again there are a lot of people who are better off now than they were at the start of Biden's term but who don't feel it. In some cases it's because they were worse off when inflation was at its worst but have now caught up. In other cases it's because they use a very narrow set of criteria (for example the price of gas) to determine whether they are better off. Then again some people are comparing now to some time (possibly exaggerated) in the past (maybe before they had kids or some other major life event).

It's difficult to campaign against "feels".

Agreed, but there is a level of objectivity. Gas prices go up and down, but across time are following a predictably rising trend. Same with a 2x4. I watch them go from a buck apiece, then a slow rise to $2.50 over a generation, then briefly $10 during the pandemic, then drop back to their natural $3.

When the rest of the economy follows the normal correction pattern, I'll agree that it is healthy. Till then, it's still in the ICU.

 

[theprestige]

"Abortions of convenience". What a dishonest characterization of the issue.

Not at all. The abortion debate in this country would be very different, if it were actually about carving out exceptions in law for rape, incest, and the health of the mother. But it's not. Those are the dishonest characterizations of the issue. The honest characterization is the one I made.

 

[The Don]

Not understanding - the suppliers decide the oil they want to produce and sell, the buyers decide whether to buy oil at the current price point. That is a free market.

OPEC is a cartel whose function is to control the price of oil for the benefit of its members (usually by controlling supply).

There are major oil producing countries which aren't OPEC members (notably the US) but OPEC controls enough production to manage prices effectively.

The market isn't free because supply, and hence price, is managed by a cartel.

 

[The Don]

Dude. The economy is not healthy if artificially spiked prices don't correct. If they get high and stay high, you just got stuck in the artificially inflated state. Correction is a part of market health.

When oil prices spike, the market eventually corrects and they return to their previous projected path. They don't spike to $5/gallon then everyone throws up their hands and says "whelp, this is the new normal", but that's what's happening here. Taint healthy.

Agreed, but there is a level of objectivity. Gas prices go up and down, but across time are following a predictably rising trend. Same with a 2x4. I watch them go from a buck apiece, then a slow rise to $2.50 over a generation, then briefly $10 during the pandemic, then drop back to their natural $3.

When the rest of the economy follows the normal correction pattern, I'll agree that it is healthy. Till then, it's still in the ICU.

US inflation is under 3% and as you note the "headline" items seem to have reverted to trend.

Typically wages have lagged inflation but for most people have caught up which means that major expenses like an existing home or car loan are cheaper in real terms.

Of course if you have to explain to someone that they're akshully better off - you've already lost the argument because it's all about the "feels"

 

[Hercules56]

Not at all. The abortion debate in this country would be very different, if it were actually about carving out exceptions in law for rape, incest, and the health of the mother. But it's not. Those are the dishonest characterizations of the issue. The honest characterization is the one I made.

Abortion to save the life of the mother or cause fetus is terrible ill or disfigured, is not an abortion of "convenience".

 

[Darat]

OPEC is a cartel whose function is to control the price of oil for the benefit of its members (usually by controlling supply).

There are major oil producing countries which aren't OPEC members (notably the US) but OPEC controls enough production to manage prices effectively.

The market isn't free because supply, and hence price, is managed by a cartel.

A free market allows suppliers to do as they please, and that can include forming a cartel. It is a regulated market when they are not allowed to form cartels not a free market.

 

[Myriad]

---

Omitted poll option: effectively sold out the working people they claimed to represent decades ago.

Well, this, obviously.

Or apparently, not so obviously. Well, whatever.

I could go through a list of specifics in detail, and most responses will be one or more of:

1. The things the workers complain about just show they're scum. (Aka the favorite tune of every doomed aristocracy ever.)
2. The things the workers complain about are unfortunately necessary for the greater good of all.
3. The things the workers complain about are more the Republicans' fault than the Democrats'.
4. The things the workers complain about will only be made worse by Trump's policies.

Then folks can argue with me through multiple threads about whether or to what extent those are true, but here's the important point: #4, even if true and even if the class in question knows it's true, doesn't matter. If you're finding that your skeptical-rationalist understanding can't quite explain why Trump won, without positing absurd amounts of bigotry misogyny etc. among neighbors you've always thought were good enough people before, that's likely where the gap is.

 

[Thermal]

US inflation is under 3% and as you note the "headline" items seem to have reverted to trend.

In some things, sure. A majority has not.

Typically wages have lagged inflation but for most people have caught up which means that major expenses like an existing home or car loan are cheaper in real terms.

Not even close, in my corner of the globe. Real estate has doubled since the pandemic, and a new Ford f-160 shot up to like $50k. Hell, beat up used trucks on the side of the road are going for $10k around here. Incomes have not doubled, and in many cases stayed stagnant.

Of course if you have to explain to someone that they're akshully better off - you've already lost the argument because it's all about the "feels"

Agreed that there is a good measure of subjectivity going on. But it's not exactly unfounded. I get reminded of it every time I pick up my nearly double priced coffee, when I can track my rates in detail over that same period, and they have gone down a little in net.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ive searched far and wide for doctors that perform late abortions. None of them say anything about the 36th week.

It appears to be a dishonest red herring.

Why would they say anything about the 36th week? They don't need to. Nor is it even possible to determine pregnancy date with that kind of accuracy that late in a pregnancy, so someone in their 36th week can simply claim it's a few weeks earlier and there's no way to prove it.

And it's easy to find providers that say they do it up to the 35th week, which in reality means they do it in the 36th week because there's no way to distinguish. Nor does this distinction even matter, because at 35 weeks you're still in the convenience stage, because it's no harder or riskier to the mother to simply deliver a live fetus at that point.

There's nothing dishonest about what I or theprestige said. Rather, you were ignorant of the reality of late term abortion. Perhaps now you understand better.

 

[Thermal]

A free market allows suppliers to do as they please, and that can include forming a cartel. It is a regulated market when they are not allowed to form cartels not a free market.

There is an argument that gasoline should be a well regulated commodity, much like a public utility. If electricity wasn't sat on, it would be worth a couple grand a month to you, easily. How far would you function without your live wires today? Same with gasoline (in the States, anyway). Many of us can't take a bus to work, as we live in a highly mobile society wh where public transportation and Uber won't cut it.

 

[Darat]

What did the Democrats do wrong? Believed that no normal person could vote for a rapist regardless of the party they represented, but didn't realise that so many people were abnormal and would vote for a rapist.

 

[Thermal]

Well, this, obviously.

Or apparently, not so obviously. Well, whatever.

I could go through a list of specifics in detail, and most responses will be one or more of:

1. The things the workers complain about just show they're scum. (Aka the favorite tune of every doomed aristocracy ever.)
2. The things the workers complain about are unfortunately necessary for the greater good of all.
3. The things the workers complain about are more the Republicans' fault than the Democrats'.
4. The things the workers complain about will only be made worse by Trump's policies.

Then folks can argue with me through multiple threads about whether or to what extent those are true, but here's the important point: #4, even if true and even if the class in question knows it's true, doesn't matter. If you're finding that your skeptical-rationalist understanding can't quite explain why Trump won, without positing absurd amounts of bigotry misogyny etc. among neighbors you've always thought were good enough people before, that's likely where the gap is.

In fairness, there is no one reason things went right or wrong for either party, politically and culturally. It's Myriad, if you know what I mean.

In these discussions, we too often lock on a bullet point (usually prompted by another poster's take) and oversimplify the hell.out of it because one nerve or another got touched.

 

[3point14]

Failed to own enough media companies.

Propaganda wins elections.