Cont: 2024 Election Thread part 3

[Aridas]

There's a bunch that could be said on the general topic, either way, but I sorta feel like poking at one more aspect. The issue of illegal immigration has a similarity to the topic of women's healthcare rights.

Democrats seem to be more likely to support a pragmatic approach to both - after all, illegal immigrants are going to happen, so long as the US doesn't turn into an even worse place than where they came from and so long as there's a friggin' massive demand for their cheap labor (usually for Republican employers), just like history has shown that abortion rates overall tend not to be much affected by the legality of such. Given that, it's better to try to handle both issues in a way that reduces harm as much as possible and to take measures to reduce the need for such smartly.

Republican propaganda-driven people, on the other hand, seem to be far more likely to support a more quixotically ideological "impose their will upon the world" approach. "Abortions are unconscionable! Illegal immigrants are heinous criminals! America should be PURE! No matter how many atrocities are necessary to make that happen, they brought it upon themselves." Also, the factual effectiveness often isn't really a real concern. Heard a Trumper co-worker yesterday try to claim that the whole immigration issue could be solved with a couple pen strokes by simply closing the border. Can't say I was impressed at all. Similar goes for the abstinence-only sex education and preventing access to safety measures against getting pregnant that is what Republican propaganda driven people push as somehow making things better.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Trump will install Stephen Miller again and the mass deportations will happen. It'll be cruel and inhumane. Those in The Party making appearanced on talk shows saying it'll be humane are telling outright lies.

 

[Hercules56]

There's a bunch that could be said on the general topic, either way, but I sorta feel like poking at one more aspect. The issue of illegal immigration has a similarity to the topic of women's healthcare rights.

Democrats seem to be more likely to support a pragmatic approach to both - after all, illegal immigrants are going to happen, so long as the US doesn't turn into an even worse place than where they came from and so long as there's a friggin' massive demand for their cheap labor (usually for Republican employers), just like history has shown that abortion rates overall tend not to be much affected by the legality of such. Given that, it's better to try to handle both issues in a way that reduces harm as much as possible and to take measures to reduce the need for such smartly.

Republican propaganda-driven people, on the other hand, seem to be far more likely to support a more quixotically ideological "impose their will upon the world" approach. "Abortions are unconscionable! Illegal immigrants are heinous criminals! America should be PURE! No matter how many atrocities are necessary to make that happen, they brought it upon themselves." Also, the factual effectiveness often isn't really a real concern. Heard a Trumper co-worker yesterday try to claim that the whole immigration issue could be solved with a couple pen strokes by simply closing the border. Can't say I was impressed at all. Similar goes for the abstinence-only sex education and preventing access to safety measures against getting pregnant that is what Republican propaganda driven people push as somehow making things better.

I think Dems need to go back to where we used to be on immigration: law-abiding folks who have been here illegally for 20+ years can stay, but have to pay a fine and get in the back of a line for a Green Card. Everyone else has to leave, unless they served in the US military.

Unlimited number of asylum seekers can come in? No we cant keep doing that. Its not sustainable.

 

[jt512]

For the most part the polls were about right.

For what's it;s worth, the news channels talk shows have been blasting the polls for being inaccurate and using bad polling techniques,

Angrysoba is correct. According to Andrew Gelman, a Columbia statistician who helped developed The Economist's forecast model (and also helped Nate Silver early on, IIRC), the magnitude of the non-sampling error in the polls was comparable to that of the three previous presidential elections.

 

[Aridas]

I think Dems need to go back to where we used to be on immigration: law-abiding folks who have been here illegally for 20+ years can stay, but have to pay a fine and get in the back of a line for a Green Card. Everyone else has to leave, unless they served in the US military.

Personally, I'm not that concerned with specific policies, just the overall principles in play and the actual effects on the US.

Unlimited number of asylum seekers can come in? No we cant keep doing that. Its not sustainable.

Is it worth a reminder that unlimited numbers of asylum seekers are not being allowed in? There is a cap, after all.

 

[dirtywick]

There's a bunch that could be said on the general topic, either way, but I sorta feel like poking at one more aspect. The issue of illegal immigration has a similarity to the topic of women's healthcare rights.

Democrats seem to be more likely to support a pragmatic approach to both - after all, illegal immigrants are going to happen, so long as the US doesn't turn into an even worse place than where they came from and so long as there's a friggin' massive demand for their cheap labor (usually for Republican employers), just like history has shown that abortion rates overall tend not to be much affected by the legality of such. Given that, it's better to try to handle both issues in a way that reduces harm as much as possible and to take measures to reduce the need for such smartly.

Republican propaganda-driven people, on the other hand, seem to be far more likely to support a more quixotically ideological "impose their will upon the world" approach. "Abortions are unconscionable! Illegal immigrants are heinous criminals! America should be PURE! No matter how many atrocities are necessary to make that happen, they brought it upon themselves." Also, the factual effectiveness often isn't really a real concern. Heard a Trumper co-worker yesterday try to claim that the whole immigration issue could be solved with a couple pen strokes by simply closing the border. Can't say I was impressed at all. Similar goes for the abstinence-only sex education and preventing access to safety measures against getting pregnant that is what Republican propaganda driven people push as somehow making things better.

i agree about the insane there must be a simple solution to a complex problem and the eggheads got it wrong attitude. like, the tariff magic bullet and controlling the fed and cutting interest rates to make things cheaper.

next time somebody says i don't mind them if they come here the right way, ask them if they know what the right way is.

 

[Mike!]

I expect the dust to get blown off that unpassed border bill in pretty short order...

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Is it worth a reminder that unlimited numbers of asylum seekers are not being allowed in? There is a cap, after all.

Yes, but it will only last for a few minutes at most, then they start posting the same misconceptions and lies again.

 

[dudalb]

I note that the GOP congrtess c ritters I saw interviewed last night when into evasive mode when RFK jr was mentioned.
They know he would be a horrible choice , but are afrid of openly defying Dear Leader.
But I have feeling that Dear Leader himself consideres RFK expendable, and if he causes Dear Leader to look bad..which he will...he will be on his way out very quickly.
I think on possibity is Trump names RFK as an "Advisor" on Health or some other position with a fancy party but not that much real power.

 

[dudalb]

I love that RFK junior promises that Trump will protect our precious bodily fluids.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Think you read me in error or I didn't make it clear. People who spent time and effort to do ANYTHING generally reset those who get it for free. That is human nature.

My parents are immigrants. Most of my friends are 1st gen immigrants. My mother had a green card until 5 years ago. California is mainly immigrants. It is not some special category here. They all put in effort and time to gain citizenship and don't like it to be diluted as some freebie given out.

All I am saying is that democrats make a mistake in thinking most immigrants want border crossers to have an easy time, with benefits and only racist white people are against it. It doesn't meet with reality here.

And I say many or most not ALL. Of course not all. The voters tell the tale.

They also made a mistake thinking border crossers should be given Ferraris, and hot fudge sundaes for breakfast!

Oh wait, actually no Democrats wanted any of those things, including yours.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

btw, is anyone keeping a tally of how many Republicans and other high-profile right wingers who denounced Drumpf who are now hurrying back to him now that he suddenly won the election?

 

[Resume]

They also made a mistake thinking border crossers should be given Ferraris, and hot fudge sundaes for breakfast!

Oh wait, actually no Democrats wanted any of those things, including yours.

You forgot ponies.

 

[kookbreaker]

I love that RFK junior promises that Trump will protect our precious bodily fluids.

I like how stem cells were on his list of things he wants to promote.
Wonder how that will go over with the rest of the GOP?

 

[Stacyhs]

The question was: "what benefits do illegal migrants get?"

I answered the question.

Yes, you did. But they turned out to be untrue or only partially true as evidence by my rebuttal.

 

[dirtywick]

RFK Jr. is expected to join Trump's government after warning the 'FDA’s war on public health is about to end,' telling all employees to 'pack your bags' | Fortune

Kennedy wants to “make America healthy again.”

fortune.com

“FDA’s war on public health is about to end. This includes its aggressive suppression of psychedelics, peptides, stem cells, raw milk, hyperbaric therapies, chelating compounds, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, vitamins, clean foods, sunshine, exercise, nutraceuticals and anything else that advances human health and can’t be patented by Pharma.”

roughly where he stands on some things, the fda's suppression of sunshine being one of the more interesting to me. some oldies but goodies in the ivermectin and hdroxychloroquine, and some things i've never heard of but assume are also stupid.

 

[Stacyhs]

There's a bunch that could be said on the general topic, either way, but I sorta feel like poking at one more aspect. The issue of illegal immigration has a similarity to the topic of women's healthcare rights.

Democrats seem to be more likely to support a pragmatic approach to both - after all, illegal immigrants are going to happen, so long as the US doesn't turn into an even worse place than where they came from and so long as there's a friggin' massive demand for their cheap labor (usually for Republican employers), just like history has shown that abortion rates overall tend not to be much affected by the legality of such. Given that, it's better to try to handle both issues in a way that reduces harm as much as possible and to take measures to reduce the need for such smartly.

Republican propaganda-driven people, on the other hand, seem to be far more likely to support a more quixotically ideological "impose their will upon the world" approach. "Abortions are unconscionable! Illegal immigrants are heinous criminals! America should be PURE! No matter how many atrocities are necessary to make that happen, they brought it upon themselves." Also, the factual effectiveness often isn't really a real concern. Heard a Trumper co-worker yesterday try to claim that the whole immigration issue could be solved with a couple pen strokes by simply closing the border. Can't say I was impressed at all. Similar goes for the abstinence-only sex education and preventing access to safety measures against getting pregnant that is what Republican propaganda driven people push as somehow making things better.

Don't forget the 'Just Say No' to drugs solution that Nancy Reagan created. How did that work out?
Simple solutions for complex problems from simple minds.

 

[Stacyhs]

I think Dems need to go back to where we used to be on immigration: law-abiding folks who have been here illegally for 20+ years can stay, but have to pay a fine and get in the back of a line for a Green Card. Everyone else has to leave, unless they served in the US military.

Unlimited number of asylum seekers can come in? No we cant keep doing that. Its not sustainable.

That is not now, nor has it ever been, an immigration policy.

 

[Stacyhs]

I note that the GOP congrtess c ritters I saw interviewed last night when into evasive mode when RFK jr was mentioned.
They know he would be a horrible choice , but are afrid of openly defying Dear Leader.
But I have feeling that Dear Leader himself consideres RFK expendable, and if he causes Dear Leader to look bad..which he will...he will be on his way out very quickly.
I think on possibity is Trump names RFK as an "Advisor" on Health or some other position with a fancy party but not that much real power.

Trump used RFK Jr. when he needed him pre-election. He doesn't need him any longer so he'll renege on anything he promised him. If there's one thing Trump can be relied on, its that he has no loyalty to anyone but himself.

 

[Stacyhs]

RFK Jr. is expected to join Trump's government after warning the 'FDA’s war on public health is about to end,' telling all employees to 'pack your bags' | Fortune

Kennedy wants to “make America healthy again.”

fortune.com

roughly where he stands on some things, the fda's suppression of sunshine being one of the more interesting to me. some oldies but goodies in the ivermectin and hdroxychloroquine, and some things i've never heard of but assume are also stupid.

Remember, Trump only surrounds himself with the very best. They'll be some of the best examples of sycophantic morons and nutcases like the world has never seen before.