Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Thermal said:
Hopefully we can roundly agree here. Neo-pronouns don't even mean anything, so an individual can't say they identify with some random made up word they think sounds kinda cool. That's got to be at least one toke over the line.

He, she, they, and we're in business. As long as we can focus on whether or not one can use s/he objectively without it being taken as a value judgement. Should be a page or so to resolve, yeah?
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Dunno about the others, but I'll grant them the right to say whatever nonsense they want, as long as it's just them and their like-minded friends doing that. You call yourself a fae? Cool. I call myself an elf. Blood elf, specifically. I used to be a high elf, you know, but then my dealer got busted :p

Hell, don't get me wrong, even in front of me. Speak in tongues to each other all that you want. I have good active-noise-cancelling headphones (Sony WH-1000XM5) and I'm good at ignoring such distractions. Just don't expect me to participate :p

It's just if they want me to force me to remember an extra word just for them, lest they feel butthurt and oppressed... sorry to break it to you buttercup, you're not THAT important for me to remember your specific flavour of made up linguistic nonsense, just for you. And if you want to make an analogy to names, then rejoice, I probably don't remember your name either :p

Now quit being a petulant man-child looking for attention and/or reason to get offended, and run along. The playground is that-a-way. This here is where adults work. And they worry more about their work than about catering to your being an immature attention whore :p
 
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lionking said:
I agree with 1-6, however I have been introduced a number of transmen and transwomen and I had no problem using their preferred pronouns. Some random people on the internet though? I do not feel obliged to to use a pronoun of someone I haven’t met.
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Same here, 7 seems to be a weird outlier on that list.

However, I've never been asked to call someone Zir or Xim or Xyre or Fae etc. so I probably don't know how I'd react to that.
 
novaphile said:
Same here, 7 seems to be a weird outlier on that list.
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It is because in reality preferred pronouns is a very difficult ask.

The highlight of an employment tribunal was where the lawyer for a non-binary person (using a simple they) slipped up and used a sexed pronoun for them, and was corrected by the lawyer on the other side.
 
Aber said:
It is because in reality preferred pronouns is a very difficult ask.

The highlight of an employment tribunal was where the lawyer for a non-binary person (using a simple they) slipped up and used a sexed pronoun for them, and was corrected by the lawyer on the other side.
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If anything, this highlights the ridiculousness of not continuing to do what we have always done for at least the last few hundred years... tied personal pronouns to biological sex.
 
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Samson said:
I found this X video interesting.
I hope all on the thread view with an open mind.
It is a woman attempting to reconnect with her caucus.
She is being challenged by a "transwoman".
I found it fascinating at multiple levels, I wonder if the thread will respond.
https://twitter.com/babybeginner/status/1835951437672800631?t=qnIgvqQxT4SDr49SJgvH-g&s=19
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It seems a character trait of some trans identifed men to behave aggressively towards women. Like some men do. It's understandable why women don't want them in their private spaces.
 
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Moving this from the diversity thread, which is getting off topic again.

One thing I'm struggling to understand and reconcile is the way TRAs will simultaneously argue that

a) transgender folk have always existed and being trans is a perfectly natural human variant; any suggestion of treatment for it is not just transphobic but advocating torture

b) children who present as trans who are denied a potentially harmful medical treatment which was developed in the last few decades for actual physical illnesses will find being trans so intolerable that they will commit suicide
 
Sigh.

catsmate said:
:rolleyes:
People who deny transfolk exist.
People who deny transfolk their gender identity.
People who deny transfolk medical and other care.
People who deny transfolk their human rights.
People who deny transfolk participation in society.
People who encourage, incite and support prejudice and violence towards transfolk.

Start there.
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Nobody here, then.

Some of us assert that some people who identify as trans don't suffer from gender dysphoria, and have not been prescribed social or medical transition as a treatment for that condition.

Decoupled from sex, gender identity is functionally meaningless. At best, it's a collection of regressive sex-based stereotypes and outdated signifiers. And that's a terrible "at best".

A good portion of "trans-affirming" medical care appears to be scientifically unsound, medically unethical, and provably harmful in many cases. Especially in minors.

The claim of entitlement to care of this kind needs to be challenged, not taken for granted. The nature of this care and its applicability, and the practices of the institutions that recommend it, needs to be examined critically. This is not denial of care. This is duty of care.

Transfolk already enjoy the right to be free of discrimination in housing, employment, etc. on the basis of their gender. These and all the other rights they share in common with their fellow humans are well established in our laws, and nobody here dissents from this.

Nobody here denies transfolk participation in our society.

Nobody here encourages, etc. prejudice and violence towards transfolk.

Fiat self-ID is a terrible basis for transcending sex-segregated spaces and categories for women. It's not a human right. It's not an entitled participation in society. It's not a good reason for medical intervention.

Start there.
 
Pixel42 said:
One thing I'm struggling to understand and reconcile is the way TRAs will simultaneously argue that

a) transgender folk have always existed and being trans is a perfectly natural human variant; any suggestion of treatment for it is not just transphobic but advocating torture

b) children who present as trans who are denied a potentially harmful medical treatment which was developed in the last few decades for actual physical illnesses will find being trans so intolerable that they will commit suicide
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Perhaps what they find intolerable is knowing that they could physically transition (i.e. endocrine pathway) if only they had been born in the right time and place. Earlier generations of adolescents who wished they'd been born opposite-sexed were uniformly told—by doctors and laypersons alike—they would have to adjust their mindset to fit their body type rather than vice-versa.
 
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Probably been mentioned ITT about 38,000 times, but it just occurred to me how free we feel to slap labels on others, ie "you're a bigot, Atheist, apologist, conservative, liberal, liar etc" until we hit the point of what we can objectively, physically demonstrate. Then it's "naw, Hon, it's all about how YOU feel"
 
Pixel42 said:
Moving this from the diversity thread, which is getting off topic again.

One thing I'm struggling to understand and reconcile is the way TRAs will simultaneously argue that

a) transgender folk have always existed and being trans is a perfectly natural human variant; any suggestion of treatment for it is not just transphobic but advocating torture

b) children who present as trans who are denied a potentially harmful medical treatment which was developed in the last few decades for actual physical illnesses will find being trans so intolerable that they will commit suicide
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Well, I'm not a friend of the TRAs, surprisingly enough, but not all treatments are equal. Like, if you have trouble breathing, I could advocated for one of these two treatments:

1. It's hysteria (no, seriously, trouble breathing was a sign of that, all the way to the 19'th century) and a doctor should finger you to cure that -- and possibly remove your clit if that doesn't work (again, they did that) -- or

2. Send you to have your lung capacity checked and if appropriate, give you an asthma inhaler.

Both are "treatments", but they're not equal. One CAN balk at one without balking at both.

Unfortunately, the current problem is that what the TRAs favour is a lot more like #1 than #2, as evidence based medicine goes.
 
From the pen of JK Rowling today:

"Narcissism, sadism, entitlement, emotional blackmail, fetishisation of victimhood, threats of violence and suicide, indifference towards anyone else's rights: this movement has attracted more cluster B personality disorders than any in history."

Heroine or villain?
 
catsmate said:
Indeed, the land of bigoted politicians, mass murders in school, poverty, poor healthcare and child death.
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I think you should pay heed to the thread title.
Kamala Harris and Tim Walz are keen to scale up the transitioning of children to their wrong sex.
Donald Trump is declarative that he will stop this stone dead.
 
Samson said:
I think you should pay heed to the thread title.
Kamala Harris and Tim Walz are keen to scale up the transitioning of children to their wrong sex.
Donald Trump is declarative that he will stop this stone dead.
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"Gender-affirming" surgeries in the U.S. increased by about 2.5x between 2016 and 2020. It would have been more had Covid lockdowns not cancelled or delayed many planned procedures in 2020. Whoever was in office then didn't stop it, so it makes sense to give people who weren't in office then a chance. Like Donald Trump, right? Oh, wait...
 
Samson said:
I think you should pay heed to the thread title.
Kamala Harris and Tim Walz are keen to scale up the transitioning of children to their wrong sex.Donald Trump is declarative that he will stop this stone dead.
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Citation where they have said that please?

Myriad said:
"Gender-affirming" surgeries in the U.S. increased by about 2.5x between 2016 and 2020. It would have been more had Covid lockdowns not cancelled or delayed many planned procedures in 2020. Whoever was in office then didn't stop it, so it makes sense to give people who weren't in office then a chance. Like Donald Trump, right? Oh, wait...
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Exactly!
 
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