Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Cosmic Yak]

No it doesn't. You had to ignore that he already mention that one of his examples were only resolved this year. Not even a few years old.

To restate, for the umpteenth time, for those of you STILL not reading my posts carefully before launching knee-jerk attacks:
I am not saying that all these incidents have ceased. I am saying that they are becoming less frequent, and less "successful" (in terms of the desired result from the TRAs' harassment), and that this trend will continue. That one single quoted case has only recently been resolved does not in any way invalidate my point.

Plus, saying that change CAN happen is a whole different thing than saying that change DID happen. I mean, something could have changed in Russia since two years ago, but in practice it didn't.

One more time: CHANGE HAS HAPPENED. THE EVIDENCE IS ON THIS THREAD. READ IT FIRST BEFORE RESPONDING.
Thanks.

 

[smartcooky]

Say what? Is this the lamest dodge ever, or did you not bother to read my post again?
You quote me saying things have changed. I say that they have, and that evidence has been provided to you showing this. You reply by saying the evidence that change has happened has no relation to your post about change happening. This makes no sense to me at all.



No, I did not. You put words in my mouth. Please don't. What I said was what I said, no more or less than that.


Or, what is actually known as a strawman. Your opinion of what you thought I might have said, but didn't, an opinion you are using to criticise me for saying things I haven't said? Yeah, that's a strawman.


Yes, it does. Read it again.
"Change can happen over a few years" directly relates to "examples that were only a few years old". I cannot see how these two quotes are completely unrelated, as you claim, without having to believe you are simply being dishonest.

Its quite simple really. I disagree with your assessment.

You seem to think things are changing, and that these kinds of things will get less and less common in the future. I do not share your optimism.

I'm not seeing any diminishing in the frequency of these sorts of incidents in which people are arrested, harassed, intimidate and cancelled for expressing their personal and valid opinions, and put through the mill, which, as somone correctly characterized earlier "The Process IS the punishment". These things are still happening.

 

[Matthew Best]

To restate, for the umpteenth time, for those of you STILL not reading my posts carefully before launching knee-jerk attacks:
I am not saying that all these incidents have ceased. I am saying that they are becoming less frequent,

How did you determine this?

 

[Samson]

While I'm no longer a fan of smartcooky, I don't think he's a transphobe. Samson- for sure, absolutely. Ron Obvious? Not entirely sure, but I don't believe so.
However, just because I disagree with your assessment of these members doesn't mean I'm happy to see you go. This forum is small enough already: we can't afford to lose more members, even ones with as few posts as you. There is a real danger of this place becoming an echo chamber, something I do not wish for. So, if you could, ignore those who would like to see you leave. Instead, stick around and engage a bit more. We could use a wider variety of opinion round here.

To single me out as the only transphobe is fine with me.
My brother was probably an autogynephile through his adult life. However when he was discovered dressed in his girlfriends clothes, as seems inevitable with the syndrome, he was soon prescribed massive doses of estrogen. He died in about 3 years of a rare autoimmune disease.
This has encouraged me to look at the facts of medication, and they are uniquely evil in medicine.
New Zealand now has by far the highest rate of kids being medically transitioned, in the world.
I would rather not see people like my late brother being praised for their bravery in coming out as trans, but serving as a real warning to the community at large about the inevitable results of Lupron, estrogen, and testosterone on perfectly healthy bodies.
It usually ends badly, and it makes A class drugs look safe by comparison.
The sooner it all stops, the better the patients will be.

 

[HansMustermann]

To single me out as the only transphobe is fine with me.
My brother was probably an autogynephile through his adult life. However when he was discovered dressed in his girlfriends clothes, as seems inevitable with the syndrome, he was soon prescribed massive doses of estrogen. He died in about 3 years of a rare autoimmune disease.
This has encouraged me to look at the facts of medication, and they are uniquely evil in medicine.
New Zealand now has by far the highest rate of kids being medically transitioned, in the world.
I would rather not see people like my late brother being praised for their bravery in coming out as trans, but serving as a real warning to the community at large about the inevitable results of Lupron, estrogen, and testosterone on perfectly healthy bodies.
It usually ends badly, and it makes A class drugs look safe by comparison.
The sooner it all stops, the better the patients will be.

So let me get this straight (pardon the pun)

Your brother died of a rare autoimmune disease, which are mostly documented in WOMEN in conjunction with estrogen, and literally don't even make the top 20 list for men using estrogen, so... it's obviously the fault of estrogen.

And you blame Lupron, which ISN'T a hormone used for transitioning, but for stuff like various cancers (most of them in women, such as endometriosis... which literally requires a womb, but some also in males), and is NOT prescribed together with estrogen OR testosterone. It's in fact a known combination to avoid. Which is why it doesn't get used in transitioning.

Like, seriously, have you actually studied that stuff?

And your first thought if your brother took Lupron WASN'T that he may have had some other condition, but that the TRAs are to blame?

I mean, the Allfather knows I disagree a lot with TRAs, but treating even your brother's death as just a stepping stone to push ignorant propaganda is... low.

 

[Samson]

So let me get this straight (pardon the pun)

Your brother died of a rare autoimmune disease, which are mostly documented in WOMEN in conjunction with estrogen, and literally don't even make the top 20 list for men using estrogen, so... it's obviously the fault of estrogen.

And you blame Lupron, which ISN'T a hormone used for transitioning, but for stuff like various cancers (most of them in women, such as endometriosis... which literally requires a womb, but some also in males), and is NOT prescribed together with estrogen OR testosterone. It's in fact a known combination to avoid. Which is why it doesn't get used in transitioning.

Like, seriously, have you actually studied that stuff?

And your first thought if your brother took Lupron WASN'T that he may have had some other condition, but that the TRAs are to blame?

I mean, the Allfather knows I disagree a lot with TRAs, but treating even your brother's death as just a stepping stone to push ignorant propaganda is... low.

As I say, I am happy to be the one true transphobe.
Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to persuade me that poisoning healthy bodies with Lupron, Estrogen and Testosterone is good medicine.
You may find a preferred term to poisoning if you wish.

 

[HansMustermann]

But the whole point was that almost nobody prescribes Lupron on a healthy body. It's a medicine against a bunch of cancers, and your brother being a male, the most probable one would be prostate cancer. (Though I guess using it against breast cancer is technically POSSIBLE, since a male can also get that. Rarely.) The only use on a "healthy" body, and even that requires massive air-quotes, is to make sure one of those cancers doesn't relapse after that poor fellow had one.

So, like, WTH, this isn't even transphobia. You're literally railing against prescribing anti-cancer medication. That's not just ignorant, it's evil.

 

[Samson]

But the whole point was that almost nobody prescribes Lupron on a healthy body. It's a medicine against a bunch of cancers, and your brother being a male, the most probable one would be prostate cancer. (Though I guess using it against breast cancer is technically POSSIBLE, since a male can also get that. Rarely.) The only use on a "healthy" body, and even that requires massive air-quotes, is to make sure one of those cancers doesn't relapse after that poor fellow had one.

So, like, WTH, this isn't even transphobia. You're literally railing against prescribing anti-cancer medication. That's not just ignorant, it's evil.

My brother found someone to prescribe estrogen. He died 20 years back.
Lupron is prescribed to hundreds of prepubescent New Zealanders who were completely healthy.
It has applications in prostate cancer, chemically castrating male sex offenders, and precocious puberty.
It is off label for mentally ill children.

 

[Elaedith]

But the whole point was that almost nobody prescribes Lupron on a healthy body. It's a medicine against a bunch of cancers, and your brother being a male, the most probable one would be prostate cancer. (Though I guess using it against breast cancer is technically POSSIBLE, since a male can also get that. Rarely.) The only use on a "healthy" body, and even that requires massive air-quotes, is to make sure one of those cancers doesn't relapse after that poor fellow had one.

So, like, WTH, this isn't even transphobia. You're literally railing against prescribing anti-cancer medication. That's not just ignorant, it's evil.

Lupron is used off-label as a puberty blocker.

 

[Samson]

Lupron is used off-label as a puberty blocker.

Yes, and I should clarify.
The children left alone are not mentally ill, the adults have constructed this.
But we all know this.

 

[HansMustermann]

Lupron is used off-label as a puberty blocker.

I deliberately chose to ignore that use, since by Samson's own claims, his brother was an adult. At that point, it's a bit too late to block puberty. Quoth Jaskier, "that ship has sailed, wrecked and sunk to the bottom of the ocean"

So he's trying to use his brother to blame Lupron, when it either wasn't prescribed to him at all, or if it was, it was as something else than a puberty blocker.

 

[Samson]

I deliberately chose to ignore that use, since by Samson's own claims, his brother was an adult. At that point, it's a bit too late to block puberty. Quoth Jaskier, "that ship has sailed, wrecked and sunk to the bottom of the ocean"

So he's trying to use his brother to blame Lupron, when it either wasn't prescribed to him at all, or if it was, it was as something else than a puberty blocker.

My brother was like
1. Bruce Jenner.
2. Richard Levine.
3. "Andrea" Schu Long
4. "India" Willoughby.
5. Rohann Stace.
However he was unmarried and childless.

1 2 4 and 5 left trans widows and annoyed offspring. It is best left to everyone to consider if this is a community good.

 

[d4m10n]

Beto: "Because you're not Humpty Dumpty. The language is common to us all, for communication with each other. If you are going to use archaic meanings, it is bound to cause needless confusion.

One could make a similar argument by replacing "archaic" with "innovative" here, since either move potentially causes confusion.

I don't mind whether people use pronouns in Alph's "archaic" way (mapping to sex at birth) or Beto's innovative way (mapping to an individual's personal sense of sex or gender or lack thereof) so long as I can easily tell which pronouns point to which proper nouns. That said, in the other (recently closed) thread about misgendering we had at least one poster claiming that there is only one correct way, that is, Beto's way.

The argument was that individuals get to declare what their name and gender are at any given time, such things are not socially constructed via a web of intersubjective agreement throughout society but spring forth from the minds of individuals alone. It almost sounded like something from The Fountainhead and was similarly disconnected from how things actually work in various human cultures, where people awaken into language with an entire network of other more experienced people telling them about their given name and sex role and what those will be taken to mean. It wasn't a great argument, but it would no doubt appeal to ideological individualists.

Your argument is worse, though, in that it treats "archaism" as a premise when in fact most English speakers are still pointing to sex most of the time when they use pronouns; all of the time when talking about non-human mammals such as pets and racehorses. We switch to the new-fangled usage when we have to because we're talking about Sam Smith ("they") or Agee Merager ("she") or someone else who would like their gendered role to change from what it was when they first learned that girls and boys are treated differently.

Exactly where the point is when something stops being a malapropism or a mistake and becomes standard usage, I'll leave to the linguists. But "me and my cool mates have decided to use the word this way therefore you must do so to on pain of being cancelled" is not organic.

As much as I usually object to paraphrasing someone else's position between quotation marks (especially in arguments about language) I don't really disagree with this characterization of what is happening in discussions on the fringes of gender studies. The standard play is shaming followed by boycott (e.g. rage-quitting the thread or forum) if the shaming proves ineffective, rather than making an argument for adopting the new usage based on shared values.

Pronouns are exceedingly difficult to change, and organic change is extremely slow. The only way you're going to win this one, gender-fans, is by getting to the point when most children pick up your preferred usage when they acquire language as infants.

All of my former infants learned to use gender neutral pronouns for their professedly nonbinary friends in elementary school or middle school, either from other students or from TikTok; I doubt they've ever questioned whether it's an improvement on the old system.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

How did you determine this?

By the dearth of cases posted here that are recent. If they were there, I'm sure smartcooky would be posting them, rather than relying on cases that date back several years.

 

[Elaedith]

By the dearth of cases posted here that are recent. If they were there, I'm sure smartcooky would be posting them, rather than relying on cases that date back several years.

You clearly don't know anything about what's going on. I referred to Maya Forstater having been referred to CPS just a few weeks ago and you claimed the case was resolved several years ago.

 

[HansMustermann]

By the dearth of cases posted here that are recent. If they were there, I'm sure smartcooky would be posting them, rather than relying on cases that date back several years.

Really? You're going for THAT blatant of a reversal of burden of proof, and nonsensical by even the standards of that? You know you're right, because otherwise someone would have proven you wrong? Jeesh

 

[d4m10n]

Just use the normal word. Themselves. There's no need to complicate it.

I'm still admiring the irony on this one. It's like a SelfAwarewolves master class thesis.

Hopefully we can all now agree that three pronouns are quite enough and we needn't cater to the fae, whomever they might turn out to be and whenever they choose to appear in human form.

 

[Pixel42]

1. There are only two biological sexes
2. Biological sex is immutable and can never be changed
3. Woman = Biological Female and Man = Biological Male
4. Males should never be allowed to compete in Female sports, ever.
5. Males should never be given the right to enter female only safe spaces
6. Gender can be used to describe a social role, but cannot be bootstrapped to describe sex roles.
7. Personal pronouns should match biological sex not gender.

TRA's consider all of the above 1 to 7 to be transphobic.

You forgot

8. The findings of the Cass report should not be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Thermal]

Hopefully we can all now agree that three pronouns are quite enough and we needn't cater to the fae, whomever they might turn out to be and whenever they choose to appear in human form.

Hopefully we can roundly agree here. Neo-pronouns don't even mean anything, so an individual can't say they identify with some random made up word they think sounds kinda cool. That's got to be at least one toke over the line.

He, she, they, and we're in business. As long as we can focus on whether or not one can use s/he objectively without it being taken as a value judgement. Should be a page or so to resolve, yeah?

 

[smartcooky]

By the dearth of cases posted here that are recent. If they were there, I'm sure smartcooky would be posting them, rather than relying on cases that date back several years.

As HansMustermann correctly points out, this is blatantly reversing the burden of proof. Nonetheless....

20/08/2024 https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/08/20/pkif-a20.html

I was arrested at Heathrow Airport under the Terrorism Act, Sec 12 because of my reporting. 6 police officers were waiting for me at the entrance of the aircraft. I was held for almost 24 hours and questioned. I believe I'm the first journalist to be arrested under this provision of the Terrorism Act. I feel that this is a political persecution and hampers my ability to work as a journalist.​

Arrested for reporting truth that wasn't the 'preferred truth' the UK government wanted him to report

21/08/2024 https://www.thefire.org/news/blogs/...-prosecute-speech-further-afield-online-while

"We will throw the full force of the law at people," Rowley said. And whether you’re in this country committing crimes on the streets or committing crimes from further afield online, we will come after you."​

If UK authorities try extraditing Americans to suppress their free speech, they will get told to pound sand!

26/06/2024 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/marieha-hussain-coconut-not-racist-33682224

Enough said already about how ridiculous this was. Only just found not guilty a few days ago.

- - - - -

These are just a few examples of the many I have found. I might post some more later when I have time. Even limiting searches to the last 12 months, there are over 470,000 results so it will take a while to get through and there will be duplicates that need eliminating.

Also, what you do not take into consideration is that these things can be hard to find, because they often don't appear in publication until months after the incident. In the case of academics being cancelled for gender critical speech, there is little if any publication outside of university journals and blogs. Its only if they really hit the headlines, like the Kathleen Stock or the Selina Todd cases, that they appear in the mainstream media, who are themselves, are either captured by gender ideology cult, or are reticent to buck it for fear of being targeted themselves.