"Misgendering" is now a federal offense

[Thermal]

In that specific example, clearly bullying is taking olace and should be stopped. I also would not accept someone being labeled as "the trans".

Cool. I agree. The squirrelly part is that when you misgender them (from their POV), it feels like bullying to them, whether it is true and accurate or not.

Saying "he" to Nancy (formerly Charles) is bluntly denying what they say they are, even though you may not mean it that way. And I think that must sting, and I dunno about you, but I don't want my words to hurt anyone. Well, inadvertently, anyway.

Good analogy: say I believe you to be a woman. It's an anonymous forum and we can't see each other, but my impression of your posting is that you are female. You correct me, and say "nah, man, I'm a guy".

Do I have the right to say my impression of your gender is more accurate than your self ID, and would I be a flaming douchey bully to continually refer to you as a woman? I kinda think so.

 

[Hercules56]

Cool. I agree. The squirrelly part is that when you misgender them (from their POV), it feels like bullying to them, whether it is true and accurate or not.

Saying "he" to Nancy (formerly Charles) is bluntly denying what they say they are, even though you may not mean it that way. And I think that must sting, and I dunno about you, but I don't want my words to hurt anyone. Well, inadvertently, anyway.

Good analogy: say I believe you to be a woman. It's an anonymous forum and we can't see each other, but my impression of your posting is that you are female. You correct me, and say "nah, man, I'm a guy".

Do I have the right to say my impression of your gender is more accurate than your self ID, and would I be a flaming douchey bully to continually refer to you as a woman? I kinda think so.

If I constantly refer to my having given birth and my breasts being big, you would be right to refer to me as "she". Even if I state that I am a man.

 

[bruto]

In that specific example, clearly bullying is taking olace and should be stopped. I also would not accept someone being labeled as "the trans".

But if you openly misgender someone or insist on using their former name, there is only one reason for that, and, apart from the pettifogging literalism so beloved of right wingers, that is exactly what you are doing. Just with a different set of words. Actually, it might well be considered worse. If you call a person "the trans" it's certainly likely to be impolite and unsuitable, but you are not absolutely and unequivocally saying you reject the transition, especially if you do it more than the once that might be called for when registering that you notice it. If you misgender someone on purpose, you both label them as trans and express your refusal to accept them.

 

[Thermal]

If I constantly refer to my having given birth and my breasts being big, you would be right to refer to me as "she". Even if I state that I am a man.

Not what I asked.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Cool. I agree. The squirrelly part is that when you misgender them (from their POV), it feels like bullying to them, whether it is true and accurate or not.

Saying "he" to Nancy (formerly Charles) is bluntly denying what they say they are, even though you may not mean it that way. And I think that must sting, and I dunno about you, but I don't want my words to hurt anyone. Well, inadvertently, anyway.

Good analogy: say I believe you to be a woman. It's an anonymous forum and we can't see each other, but my impression of your posting is that you are female. You correct me, and say "nah, man, I'm a guy".

Do I have the right to say my impression of your gender is more accurate than your self ID, and would I be a flaming douchey bully to continually refer to you as a woman? I kinda think so.

Good analogy!

I'd also like to know if Herc would call a non-bearded transwoman a woman or not. Not just the edge case he's so fond of.

 

[junkshop]

Charles is a man. Charles has facial hair and is built like a typical man.

One day Charles decides to become trans. He has undergone zero transition, being surgical or hormonal. Charles still has his facial hair, but now wants to be called "Nancy".

You claim its bullying to still refer to Nancy as "he/him" even though he has undergone zero transition and has facial hair.

Is this bullying? Its a worthy debate.

Nice strawperson you've made there.

 

[Ziggurat]

Good analogy: say I believe you to be a woman. It's an anonymous forum and we can't see each other, but my impression of your posting is that you are female. You correct me, and say "nah, man, I'm a guy".

Do I have the right to say my impression of your gender is more accurate than your self ID, and would I be a flaming douchey bully to continually refer to you as a woman? I kinda think so.

Do pronouns refer to gender or to sex?

On this forum, the distinction doesn't much matter, since none of our interactions are physical. But in the real world, the distinction does matter, quite a lot. If I use one set of pronouns for you which correctly (and possibly obviously as well) correspond to your sex, but you don't like me doing that because you want me to use a different set to refer to your gender, and I really bullying you because I use pronouns to refer to sex and not gender? I don't think that you can automatically call that bullying.

 

[arthwollipot]

What if the transwoman has not underdone any transitional surgery or therapy, and still looks like a man. Do I still have to refer to him as "her"?

If he has facial hair, do I still have to call him "her"?

If that is how she wants you to refer to her, why on earth wouldn't you? To do otherwise is (at the very least) rude. To do so persistently and deliberately is bullying.

ETA: Incidentally, I know a cisgender woman with a considerable amount of facial hair. Would you refer to her as "him"?

 

[arthwollipot]

Do pronouns refer to gender or to sex?

On this forum, the distinction doesn't much matter, since none of our interactions are physical. But in the real world, the distinction does matter, quite a lot. If I use one set of pronouns for you which correctly (and possibly obviously as well) correspond to your sex, but you don't like me doing that because you want me to use a different set to refer to your gender, and I really bullying you because I use pronouns to refer to sex and not gender? I don't think that you can automatically call that bullying.

There is not as clear a distinction between gender and sex as you believe. Use whatever pronouns someone asks you to. To do otherwise is rude.

 

[Hercules56]

There is not as clear a distinction between gender and sex as you believe. Use whatever pronouns someone asks you to. To do otherwise is rude.

I demand you call me "Your Highness".

Will you?

 

[junkshop]

I demand you call me "Your Highness".

Will you?

That is neither a name nor a pronoun, it is a title*. Not the same thing.



_{* a very silly and archaic title that (in my opinion) should be retired along with the rest of the ridiculous monarchical nonsense, but a title none the less.}

 

[Ziggurat]

There is not as clear a distinction between gender and sex as you believe.

This is only true to the extent that gender is poorly defined. And it's irrelevant anyways. Sex is well defined. Either pronouns refer to sex, or to something else. If they refer to sex, then you can't pick your pronouns.

Use whatever pronouns someone asks you to. To do otherwise is rude.

Who are you to dictate the rules of etiquette? Who are you to dictate the rules of language and grammar? Why do you get to tell me that pronouns don't refer to sex?

 

[bruto]

I demand you call me "Your Highness".

Will you?

Highness is not a ******* pronoun.

 

[Trausti]

Highness is not a ******* pronoun.

And men are not "she" or "her."

 

[Roboramma]

Highness is not a ******* pronoun.

Sure, but there's a similar logic being applied. Not using someone's preferred pronouns is rude because you not referring to them as they want to be referred. The question Hercules post implies is, how is this different from other situations where we refer to be people not as they would prefer to be referred, but as we perceive them?

There may be meaningful differences, but "it's not a pronoun" clearly isn't the meaningful thing there.

 

[Orphia Nay]

This is only true to the extent that gender is poorly defined. And it's irrelevant anyways. Sex is well defined. Either pronouns refer to sex, or to something else. If they refer to sex, then you can't pick your pronouns.



Who are you to dictate the rules of etiquette? Who are you to dictate the rules of language and grammar? Why do you get to tell me that pronouns don't refer to sex?

Say you were at work and you were in a meeting with someone whose pronouns (either he/him or she/her) had been made available to you (e.g. on their bio) just before so they're clear in your mind.

Would you use those pronouns when referring to them in the meeting, or use other ones depending on your opinion of their sex?

 

[Orphia Nay]

Sure, but there's a similar logic being applied. Not using someone's preferred pronouns is rude because you not referring to them as they want to be referred. The question Hercules post implies is, how is this different from other situations where we refer to be people not as they would prefer to be referred, but as we perceive them?

There may be meaningful differences, but "it's not a pronoun" clearly isn't the meaningful thing there.

The "meaningful" thing about Hercules56's hypothetical is that he's doing it to be purposefully rude and obnoxious.

 

[Trausti]

depending on your opinion of their sex?

Oh, the world has become so stupid.

 

[Roboramma]

The "meaningful" thing about Hercules56's hypothetical is that he's doing it to be purposefully rude and obnoxious.

Okay. You still haven't actually addressed the point, or given argument showing that there is no point, you've just said something about the supposed motives of the person making it.

ETA Worth noting is that I'm not arguing the Hercules is making a valid point. I'm arguing that "it's not a pronoun" isn't a meaningful response. It's very plausible that a meaningful response exists.

 

[Trausti]

Rachel Dolezal self-identifies as a black woman. It's extremely rude to deny that she's a black woman.