"Evolution is only a theory" stickers...

[T'ai Chi]

If they shove their beliefs in my face, I have a right to shove mine in theirs.

Just don't fall in the trap of viewing everything you disagree with as shoving beliefs in one's face.

 

[T'ai Chi]

It's not exactly "in your face"; it's in the book in the nightstand drawer.

It is also arguably the world's most influential book, found not only in nightstand drawers but in museums.

If, say, Flim-Flam somehow had that honor, that might be found in hotel room nightstand drawers.

 

[Mercutio]

I would much prefer to find Shakespeare's collected works in my hotel room. But shakespearians tend not to be evangelical...

 

[ceo_esq]

I would much prefer to find Shakespeare's collected works in my hotel room. But shakespearians tend not to be evangelical...

That would be nice. Maybe Shakespeare doesn't play as well in the Owensboro Motel 6, just off the bypass.

Of course, one suspects that the Bard himself would have been content with a Bible in the nightstand.

 

[CFLarsen]

It's not exactly "in your face"; it's in the book in the nightstand drawer. But anyhow, I already explained the reasons why you probably are not entitled to do this.

You know, the hotels want to make these Bibles available to guests, as well. It's a collaborative effort with the Gideons, even if most of the initiative comes from the Gideons' side. (Hotels even specifically request Bibles with covers in a color that goes well with the room decor - supposedly many in Las Vegas opt for the gold edition.) I'm sure you're welcome to ask the hotel if you can make your own written material available for guests as well, but that seems to me to be the extent of your entitlement in this situation.

Disagree. I visit the hotel to get a place to sleep, not have religion shoved down my throat.

When I book my room, I don't see any indication that I will be presented with a religious text, and especially a specific one.

 

[c4ts]

Disagree. I visit the hotel to get a place to sleep

And should you need some help falling asleep, the Gideons have you covered.

 

[CFLarsen]

And should you need some help falling asleep, the Gideons have you covered.

True, true....

There's also violence, porn and fairytales in it.

 

[Complexity]

Of course, one suspects that the Bard himself would have been content with a Bible in the nightstand.

Evidence?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Disagree. I visit the hotel to get a place to sleep, not have religion shoved down my throat.

When I book my room, I don't see any indication that I will be presented with a religious text, and especially a specific one.

It's in a drawer, Claus. You don't have to touch it if you don't want to.

I like the Gideon Bibles because in the front they usually have one passage, I forget which, translated into bunches of languages. I like to admire the funny foreign writing. Some of it's quite pretty.

 

[CFLarsen]

It's in a drawer, Claus. You don't have to touch it if you don't want to.

The point is that it is there. They are sending a clear message: We want you to read this.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The point is that it is there. They are sending a clear message: We want you to read this.

I don't use the little shampoos, either. I bring my own. Despite the fearful intimidation of the ukase from the Mighty Hotel Cartel: you will use these little shampoos.

 

[CFLarsen]

I don't use the little shampoos, either. I bring my own. Despite the fearful intimidation of the ukase from the Mighty Hotel Cartel: you will use these little shampoos.

There's a hell of a difference between offering complementary sanitary products and forcing customers to consider a specific religion.

Too bad you can't see that.

 

[TragicMonkey]

There's a hell of a difference between offering complementary sanitary products and forcing customers to consider a specific religion.

Too bad you can't see that.

Too bad you think the presence of a book in a drawer is "forcing" you to consider anything. Do you recoil in horror and outrage when you approach the cash desk at a Chinese restaurant if they have the little shrine up on the wall behind it? Good heavens, what if they seat you beside a Buddha, or a scroll depicting Green Tara? Oh my god, don't go into that dry cleaner's! The owner is Greek and there's an icon on the wall!! It might soil your eyes!

I pity you if your lack of faith is so weak that you burst into tears because the hotel let the Gideons stick a book in the room. Are you so easily influenced?

 

[CFLarsen]

Too bad you think the presence of a book in a drawer is "forcing" you to consider anything. Do you recoil in horror and outrage when you approach the cash desk at a Chinese restaurant if they have the little shrine up on the wall behind it? Good heavens, what if they seat you beside a Buddha, or a scroll depicting Green Tara? Oh my god, don't go into that dry cleaner's! The owner is Greek and there's an icon on the wall!! It might soil your eyes!

I pity you if your lack of faith is so weak that you burst into tears because the hotel let the Gideons stick a book in the room. Are you so easily influenced?

I didn't say I was influenced, nor did I say I burst into tears. Hyperbole will get you nowhere. Not with me, you should know that.

I said that I object to being exposed to a specific religion. Why do they assume that I am interested in the Christian religion?

When I go to a Chinese restaurant, I can expect Chinese things to be displayed. If I go to a Christian hotel, I can expect Christian things to be displayed.

But when I go to a generic hotel, that caters to everyone, I don't want to be forced to even think about one specific religion.

Would you accept it if the only available channels on your generic hotel TV were Christian preacher shows? The only thing they offer you to read is the bible, the only thing they offer you to read is Christian preacher shows?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I didn't say I was influenced, nor did I say I burst into tears. Hyperbole will get you nowhere. Not with me, you should know that.

I said that I object to being exposed to a specific religion. Why do they assume that I am interested in the Christian religion?

You said "forcing" you to "consider a specific religion. If anyone's hyperbolic, it's you. The presence of a Bible in a drawer of a hotel room is no more "forcing" you to consider it than the presence of little shampoos is forcing you to use them.

When I go to a Chinese restaurant, I can expect Chinese things to be displayed. If I go to a Christian hotel, I can expect Christian things to be displayed.

So, if the owners of the Chinese restaurant happened to be devout Catholics, and had a statue of Mary instead of Buddha, then you'd object? Because it violates your expectations? What religions are displayed where is up to your expectations?

But when I go to a generic hotel, that caters to everyone, I don't want to be forced to even think about one specific religion.

Who decides if a hotel is supposed to "generic" or not? You? What right do you have to decide what is and isn't an appropriate venue for religion?

You really don't get it, do you? As long as the government stays out of religion, it's all good. If you don't like the Sacred Heart of Jesus picture in your hotel room, you can complain, turn it to face the wall, or go to another hotel. But whining about such things "forcing" you to think anything is ridiculous. That's not being a skeptic. That's being a primadonna.

Would you accept it if the only available channels on your generic hotel TV were Christian preacher shows? The only thing they offer you to read is the bible, the only thing they offer you to read is Christian preacher shows?

Accept it? What's the alternative? Call the police? Complain to my congressman? It's a private business. They can offer whatever they like. Maybe such practices help their business, which is the only reason they'd be doing them at all. If I don't like it, I can find another hotel, or put up with it because it's no big deal. It doesn't hurt me. I don't have to watch the television, or read the books they provide.

 

[curt]

theory usage

I think it is a great lapse in our education that most people really have no clue what a theory really is, and in our culture is often used in to mean, "My wild idea that I pulled out of my butt".

I agree, I'm sure most people don't (not sure about can't) distinguish between theory, hypothesis, and idea. One class I teach is research methods at a university so I'm a little sensitive to this usage. My wife (who does understand what a theory is) commonly uses it to mean "plan." For example, "ok, my theory is we should go to the Greek place because we had Thai a couple days ago" or "I think we should put roses alongside the driveway. That's my theory!" It used to bug me. Not I think it's charming. But only from her.

 

[CFLarsen]

You said "forcing" you to "consider a specific religion. If anyone's hyperbolic, it's you.

How is this hyperbole? Do they offer the Koran? No. Why don't you find that offensive? Why do you give the Christian faith so much leverage? What is so acceptable about the Christian faith?

The presence of a Bible in a drawer of a hotel room is no more "forcing" you to consider it than the presence of little shampoos is forcing you to use them.

Only if you equate a hygiene products to religion. Religion is somewhat more than a mere product.

So, if the owners of the Chinese restaurant happened to be devout Catholics, and had a statue of Mary instead of Buddha, then you'd object? Because it violates your expectations? What religions are displayed where is up to your expectations?

I would be surprised, sure. But I wouldn't object, because when I walked through the door, I had an expectation that I would be submitted to some form of belief.

When I book a room at a generic hotel, I don't.

Who decides if a hotel is supposed to "generic" or not? You? What right do you have to decide what is and isn't an appropriate venue for religion?

When a hotel caters to the general public, they are generic. If they cater to a specific religious belief, they are not.

You really don't get it, do you?

No, I'm so stupid. I'm a blabbering idiot. Everyone who has met me says so. Good of you to point it out.

As long as the government stays out of religion, it's all good. If you don't like the Sacred Heart of Jesus picture in your hotel room, you can complain, turn it to face the wall, or go to another hotel. But whining about such things "forcing" you to think anything is ridiculous. That's not being a skeptic. That's being a primadonna.

Not at all. If you cater to the general public, you should not put a Christian bible in the rooms, if you respect their beliefs - or lack of same. It's that simple.

Accept it? What's the alternative? Call the police? Complain to my congressman? It's a private business. They can offer whatever they like. Maybe such practices help their business, which is the only reason they'd be doing them at all. If I don't like it, I can find another hotel, or put up with it because it's no big deal. It doesn't hurt me. I don't have to watch the television, or read the books they provide.

You don't find it objectionable. I do. Now, what? How do you think a Muslim feels, when he finds a bible in his hotel room?

 

[TragicMonkey]

How is this hyperbole? Do they offer the Koran? No. Why don't you find that offensive? Why do you give the Christian faith so much leverage? What is so acceptable about the Christian faith?

So, now you're back to being forced, eh? A book is a book is a book. Just because other people think it's divine doesn't mean I do, and just because I don't think it's divine means its existence, or its presence, hurts me.

As for Christianity, it's no better or worse than other religions. It does have aspects to it that would make it less unreasonable for its book to be present:
the majority of the population in my country are some variety of Christian. If I'm staying in an American hotel, I can expect they're going to try to cater to the majority a little bit. Just like I expect that the porno channels are going to be mostly aimed at straight people.

Only if you equate a hygiene products to religion. Religion is somewhat more than a mere product.

You're right. Hygiene products are far more important than religion. I use them, and so ought everbody.

It's you who are placing so much importance on a religious book. To me, as an atheist, it's just a book. A book with a history, and something of a cultural landmark, but still just a book. You seem to regard it as something vastly more. Funnily enough, so do the people who believe in it. Atheism is the lack of religion, not the opposite of religion.

I would be surprised, sure. But I wouldn't object, because when I walked through the door, I had an expectation that I would be submitted to some form of belief.

So, restaurants are okay to have religious stuff, but hotels aren't? Why is that? Don't they both cater to the public?

When I book a room at a generic hotel, I don't.

When a hotel caters to the general public, they are generic.

So, are you suggesting a Chinese restaurant caters to the Chinese, and therefore they can display religion? Oh dear, that would seem to be a bit racist, because it's suggesting that a) the Chinese are not members of the "general public", and b) "generic" = "non-ethnic" in some fashion. Not to mention that conflating ethnicity with religion or lack of it is just absurd.

If they cater to a specific religious belief, they are not.

How much "catering" is putting a book in a drawer? Not even that: they allow other people to put a book in a drawer. If hotels carry a Spanish language television station are they catering to Spanish speakers?

No, I'm so stupid. I'm a blabbering idiot. Everyone who has met me says so. Good of you to point it out.

You just seem awfully irrational on the subject of religion. See above, re: primadonna.

Not at all. If you cater to the general public, you should not put a Christian bible in the rooms, if you respect their beliefs - or lack of same. It's that simple.

So you get to decide what is and isn't appropriate for the general public, eh? You have decided that religion isn't, that the default should be no religion? Despite the fact that in both your country and mine, the majority of that general public is some variety of Christian?

You don't find it objectionable. I do. Now, what? How do you think a Muslim feels, when he finds a bible in his hotel room?

I would imagine he feels the same way I do: "Silly Christians!" and pulls out his own book. He probably doesn't get outraged about it, and complains about people "forcing" their beliefs on him, because there's a book in the room he doesn't believe in. He might even realize that he's in a minority, just like atheists, and it would be unreasonable to expect everyone to indulge his beliefs instead of those of others.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Let me put it this way: religion can be interesting. I like studying them. Not because I believe in them, but because they can tell you a lot about history and human psychology. Not to mention how they enrich art and literature. Sitting here at my computer, I, the atheist, without getting up can observe the following religious things in my own house:

a Mexican miniature nativity scene of painted wood, about one cubic inch big
a hand of Fatima
a small Our Lady of Perpetual Help icon
a small photo of Pope John Paul II
a lunchbox depicting the god Vishnu on one side and Hanuman on the other
a peculiar wooden icon depicting God the Father with a triangular halo
four big candles: one Sacred Heart of Jesus, two voodoo, and one Santeria
a wooden Egyptian sacred cat statue. It's poseable!

Not to mention the following books: the Bhagavad Gita, a Children's Catholic Bible, the Encyclopedia of the Occult, the Golden Bough, the Cloud of Unknowing, the Narnia books, Psychic Pets, a book of the Taoist writings of Chuang-tzu, a book by Chaim Potok, and assorted Nietzsche, Descartes, Spinoza, and Leibniz. (Yes, my bookcases are disorganized.) Somewhere else in the house I have Wallis Budge's Book of the Dead, lots of works on mythology, and probably even a copy of that Bible that would haunt you so if I put it in your hotel room.

And does having all of this religious stuff hurt me? No. It educates me.

 

[CFLarsen]

So, now you're back to being forced, eh?

I haven't changed my argumentation one bit. Don't try that cheap trick. Not with me. It won't work.

A book is a book is a book. Just because other people think it's divine doesn't mean I do, and just because I don't think it's divine means its existence, or its presence, hurts me.

As for Christianity, it's no better or worse than other religions. It does have aspects to it that would make it less unreasonable for its book to be present: the majority of the population in my country are some variety of Christian. If I'm staying in an American hotel, I can expect they're going to try to cater to the majority a little bit.

You can expect it, yes. But why do you accept it?

Just like I expect that the porno channels are going to be mostly aimed at straight people.

I don't know. I don't have your experience, since I don't watch the porn channels.

You're right. Hygiene products are far more important than religion. I use them, and so ought everbody.

And for good, rational reasons. There are no rational reasons why people should read the bible.

It's you who are placing so much importance on a religious book. To me, as an atheist, it's just a book. A book with a history, and something of a cultural landmark, but still just a book. You seem to regard it as something vastly more. Funnily enough, so do the people who believe in it. Atheism is the lack of religion, not the opposite of religion.

You bet I view it as something vastly more. Putting a bible in my hotel room isn't just putting a book there. It is showing me that the hotel wants me to consider a specific religion. I am not seeing a Koran there, or a Torah. I am seeing a Christian Bible. They send a clear message to me, one I haven't expressed any interest in, and one I don't expect.

So, restaurants are okay to have religious stuff, but hotels aren't? Why is that? Don't they both cater to the public?

Yes, but they send different signals. Hotels generally don't send a signal that they are Christian hotels.

So, are you suggesting a Chinese restaurant caters to the Chinese, and therefore they can display religion? Oh dear, that would seem to be a bit racist, because it's suggesting that a) the Chinese are not members of the "general public", and b) "generic" = "non-ethnic" in some fashion. Not to mention that conflating ethnicity with religion or lack of it is just absurd.

Oh, that's cute. But wrong. You see, my ex-wife was Chinese. I am very familiar with other "races", especially the Chinese. So, there is no way you can paint me as a racist, especially not when it comes to Chinese.

Dang, that backfired. What will you come up with next? I'm a Nazi?

How much "catering" is putting a book in a drawer? Not even that: they allow other people to put a book in a drawer. If hotels carry a Spanish language television station are they catering to Spanish speakers?

The Stardust allow people to put Korans in the drawers? Care to back that up with evidence?

You just seem awfully irrational on the subject of religion. See above, re: primadonna.

Gee, is there no end to what issues I am irrational about? Politics, religion.... Heck, you wouldn't think I would be skeptical about anything!

Don't make the mistake of thinking that I am non-skeptical about a certain issue, just because you disagree with me on that particular issue. It could also be because you don't like what I am saying. You don't hold the patent on what is skeptical or not.

So you get to decide what is and isn't appropriate for the general public, eh? You have decided that religion isn't, that the default should be no religion? Despite the fact that in both your country and mine, the majority of that general public is some variety of Christian?

I have decided that I feel that the default should be no religion. What is wrong with that, considering what you propose: That the majority should decide what I am subjected to?

If we follow your logic, Creationism should definitely be taught in science classes, and evolution should be banned. Is that really what you want?

I would imagine he feels the same way I do: "Silly Christians!" and pulls out his own book. He probably doesn't get outraged about it, and complains about people "forcing" their beliefs on him, because there's a book in the room he doesn't believe in. He might even realize that he's in a minority, just like atheists, and it would be unreasonable to expect everyone to indulge his beliefs instead of those of others.

Why should a Muslim even have to put up with this? Why should a skeptic?

And yes, you are suggesting that, because a majority believes in a certain religion, religion should permeate all aspects of society, yet people are free to discard it. But they can't escape it.

You want the majority to tell minorities what is the true religion or not. I don't.