How to be a non-believer in a believing world

[acbytesla]

"How do you destroy the religion without destroying relationships?"

With great difficulty. I share your basic story, and I'll elaborate: My mother (who I adored and who was my biggest supporter and best friend) was a devout Christian and probably the closest thing to a living Saint. My father was raised Protestant (which incidentally created some tension with my mother's devout Catholic family) but he didn't attend church and never talked religion--I was raised by my mother and went to Catholic school early on. It wasn't until after my father died that I pretty much confirmed with my brother that he was likely an atheist, or at most 'agnostic' So evidently he was able to reconcile that with my mother. I was not a full blown atheist until after my mom died--watching her pray to live while spending 5 years being tortured by cancer kind of clinched it for me. So I often wonder how my mother would have reacted if I had told her my (non) beliefs. I can;t be sure, but I know she would have not stopped loving me. I think she would have seriously considered my opinions since she was extremely smart, just indoctrinated the same way most of us born-again atheists were. I doubt she would have rejected her faith, but I also doubt it would have affected our relationship significantly. Similarly, my wife (who is an atheist) has a best friend who has crosses hanging over her wall. It is not the religious beliefs that destroy the relationship, it's the person. Decent thoughtful people will chose to get along. It's tempting to say--'screw the rest' but that's where it gets tricky, because I know if some of my relatives knew my non-beliefs, I'd be unfriended and unfamilied. So I just don't bring up anything remotely religion oriented with them, and if they find out by reading my numerous online posts that make it obvious that I despise religion, that's on them, not me.

You get what I'm driving at.

But there's where you might be mistaken. You might be right for sure. I felt the same way. Always afraid of saying it out loud. What I discovered was that some of them didn't believe either.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Quite handily, here in Ireland the vast majority don't care. For example, I'm well got with a group of nuns and they know I'm atheist.

I occasionally get a bit of light ribbing, but I get worse for being a Limerickman or a Cobh Ramblers season ticket holder.

 

[acbytesla]

Can you give us a more specific example of a relationship you're trying to preserve, where a person you treasure and wish to have in your life keeps bringing religion into it against your wishes?

I have had more than a few friends, an aunt, and an uncle who fit that description. My neighbor who I generally think the world of does this. That relationship at this moment is the one which I would like to resolve at this moment. He's a great guy and I've gotten to know his family well. But I'm afraid it's a friendship that is likely to dissolve when I eventually tell him I don't believe.

 

[8enotto]

My parents gave thier brood a fundy/catholic battleground to grow up in. They both told us the other was very wrong when at the core it was the same message peaches by both. The details varied a huge amount but the core was about the same.
I made no secret I couldn't find something to believe in, didn't like the constant pressure to accept them both as truth at face value.
They both made me choose but never figured on an opt three. They were both very wrong. Neither could prove they were more correct than the other.

Of five was the first to rebel and really make a choice and three followed me but faking it in the catholic tradition. Until they left home.

It did strain the relationship between us all but it was seven of us all trying to be king of our own but not in open battle over it. I sacrificed most of those relationships when I left home. No contact, no calls and no regret.
It was instant sanity around me. I lightened up on my own with nothing to push back on and made friends along the way.
I haven't had to do much pushback at all the last three decades. A few didn't want to accept I don't talk about "exact religious truths" nor my take on it but who cares. They live for winning that battle.

 

[The Atheist]

Not sure I understand the dilemma. If a Christian can't abide being in the same room as an atheist, that's the Christian's problem, not the atheist's.

I use this name all over the internet and haven't ever declined to talk to, or play with someone because their name is GodLuvsU, John3:16, or PraiseB2Allah, but I've had a lot of those people refuse to play with me because I'm an atheist.

If your belief is that weak, you know you're just deluded.

How do you destroy the religion without destroying relationships?

You can't unless both parties leave it off the table.

If you're unable to say to them "I'm not religious and don't want to discuss the subject", then you need to be prepared to have them trying to save you at every opportunity.

 

[acbytesla]

I use this name all over the internet and haven't ever declined to talk to, or play with someone because their name is GodLuvsU, John3:16, or PraiseB2Allah, but I've had a lot of those people refuse to play with me because I'm an atheist.

If your belief is that weak, you know you're just deluded.

You can't unless both parties leave it off the table.

If you're unable to say to them "I'm not religious and don't want to discuss the subject", then you need to be prepared to have them trying to save you at every opportunity.

This is basically my experience. I never bring it up or put it on the table, so to speak. But if they want to talk about it, I'll talk about it. They usually quit in minutes. They can't get around the absurdity of the miracles. That stumps them every time. Not that they won't fall back on "God can do anything." But it's impossible for them to give a good reason that these miracles actually happened.

 

[8enotto]

A basic building block of most faiths is you are a sinneŕ, a lost soul, that needs the grace of a god especially from this one true church. Usually the one speaking at the moment.


Billy Baxter is seriously hung on this belief and can't go a post without reminding us all.

I never accepted original sin. I couldn't find guilt in things I did the churches say are a sin, it varied a lot too.
I certianly won't be asking any of those churches to intervene on behalf of a god and get me divine forgiveness for whatever they say was a sin.

Without that fear of somehow never being forgiven for sins you have done, would gladly do again, the need for any god is greatly reduced. The beginning of atheism is just being sure of yourself, accepting consequences you earned.
Most times the punishment simply fits the crime. Or the reward, it goes both ways.

It's all a question of whom you believe is responsible for your business. Yourself or some invisible, all powerful nothingburger.

 

[ahhell]

I'm pretty sure that's not most faiths but rather most Christian faiths.

 

[acbytesla]

A basic building block of most faiths is you are a sinneŕ, a lost soul, that needs the grace of a god especially from this one true church. Usually the one speaking at the moment.

Billy Baxter is seriously hung on this belief and can't go a post without reminding us all.

I never accepted original sin. I couldn't find guilt in things I did the churches say are a sin, it varied a lot too.
I certianly won't be asking any of those churches to intervene on behalf of a god and get me divine forgiveness for whatever they say was a sin.

Without that fear of somehow never being forgiven for sins you have done, would gladly do again, the need for any god is greatly reduced. The beginning of atheism is just being sure of yourself, accepting consequences you earned.
Most times the punishment simply fits the crime. Or the reward, it goes both ways.

It's all a question of whom you believe is responsible for your business. Yourself or some invisible, all powerful nothingburger.

There are so many holes in Christian dogma. You could drive a truck through it. This starts with original sin. Which in a way I can accept. As none of us are perfect. We all make mistakes and could be better.

But I cannot accept that the punishment has to be death. Or worse, eternal torture.

Getting beyond the impossible miracles the biggest hole has to be substitutionary
atonement. That a being that is unfathomably powerful can't just forgive without the elaborate scheme. A scheme where he rapes a Jewish girl so he can become his own son so he can be tortured and executed just so he can forgive man.

I mean according to their theology, this being created the universe simply by talking. Really, why is forgiving so damn ridiculous?

 

[theprestige]

I have had more than a few friends, an aunt, and an uncle who fit that description. My neighbor who I generally think the world of does this. That relationship at this moment is the one which I would like to resolve at this moment. He's a great guy and I've gotten to know his family well. But I'm afraid it's a friendship that is likely to dissolve when I eventually tell him I don't believe.

Is he actually proselytizing, or is he just talking in Christian idiom?

 

[Orphia Nay]

The three stages of being proselytised at or pressed on your beliefs

"I'm not religious."

"I don't want to discuss it."

"I've looked into it in great detail and it makes me angry at all the [contradictions and insanity in the Bible / your main beef with religion] and you don't want to hear about it, so for your own sake, let it drop."

 

[stanfr]

There are so many holes in Christian dogma. You could drive a truck through it. This starts with original sin. Which in a way I can accept. As none of us are perfect. We all make mistakes and could be better.

But I cannot accept that the punishment has to be death. Or worse, eternal torture.

Original sin was a useful invention cause it gives the believer one edge over the atheist--when asked what is 'moral' the apologist can simply answer "whatever God says is moral" Atheists struggle over objective vs subjective morality, which was probably the biggest hurdle I had to cross to fully reject religious beliefs.

Getting beyond the impossible miracles the biggest hole has to be substitutionary
atonement. That a being that is unfathomably powerful can't just forgive without the elaborate scheme. A scheme where he rapes a Jewish girl so he can become his own son so he can be tortured and executed just so he can forgive man.

I mean according to their theology, this being created the universe simply by talking. Really, why is forgiving so damn ridiculous?

I believe it actually occurred by someone typing in an AI model "Let there be light" And so there was...

 

[acbytesla]

Is he actually proselytizing, or is he just talking in Christian idiom?

He's proselytizing. He's doing it very low key. And maybe it won't go any further. But I've been here before with others.

 

[acbytesla]

Original sin was a useful invention cause it gives the believer one edge over the atheist--when asked what is 'moral' the apologist can simply answer "whatever God says is moral" Atheists struggle over objective vs subjective morality, which was probably the biggest hurdle I had to cross to fully reject religious beliefs.

I don't struggle with it at all. Our morality isn't any less objective than their morality. They cannot prove there is a God much less prove that that their morality is what that God says is moral. That is subjective too depending on what each individual believes what God wants.

I believe it actually occurred by someone typing in an AI model "Let there be light" And so there was...

I didn't realize they made Smith Corona's at that time

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

This may be obvious, but if you engage with him on the substance of his beliefs, don't tell him why he shouldn't have them, tell him why they don't convince you.

 

[jt512]

And yes, I very much want to destroy religion.

What's your plan?

 

[theprestige]

He's proselytizing. He's doing it very low key. And maybe it won't go any further. But I've been here before with others.

Why not just ask him if he's trying to convert you, and if he says yes you ask him to stop? Nothing wrong with a little "please lay off the god bothering" between friends. This is starting to sound like a case of you've tried nothing and are all out of ideas. And that you value being antagonistic towards their faith more than you value being protagonistic towards your friends.

 

[acbytesla]

What's your plan?

I didn't say I had a plan.

I don't think you can persuade people out of religion.

I always present it the same way. I don't believe because it is unbelievable. If I told you that a donkey or a snake spoke to me would you believe my story? And let it roll from there.

Christians are in a tough spot with that. Uniformitarianism is the epistemology that people naturally use on everything. But they make an exception with religion. They know that snakes and donkeys don't talk. Miracles in a book hardly is a justifiable reason to ditch the uniformity principle.

 

[acbytesla]

Why not just ask him if he's trying to convert you, and if he says yes you ask him to stop? Nothing wrong with a little "please lay off the god bothering" between friends. This is starting to sound like a case of you've tried nothing and are all out of ideas. And that you value being antagonistic towards their faith more than you value being protagonistic towards your friends.

You're not far off. I value him as a friend and I worry we won't be if I'm direct. But some times you have to be.

 

[Puppycow]

My question is how do you get along with Christians without being a phony? I've resorted to saying to Christians that I believe in Christ's teachings but not in anything else.

How do you handle it?

This way:

I am not going to raise the issue of belief in any conversation.
I am beyond the stage of thinking I can change others beliefs and feel no need to do so

I will sometimes talk about it on the internet, like here, with people who I only know online. But not to proselytize atheism or non-religion (my preferred label these days is just "not religious" or even "not a member of any organized religion." I do think that the universe we find ourselves in is a mystery. It's still quite far from being "solved" by scientists. Thus, I would be more inclined to call myself agnostic than an atheist. But I am quite certain in my own mind that people who claim to know the mind of god or to be privy to divine revelation are full of ****. But I keep that part to myself.

I have some family members who are active participants in organized religion and I try to respect that. I went to a Christmas concert at my brother's church and he and his family were all part of the performance, and I enjoyed it for the music and the spectacle and just tried to be quiet and respectful about it instead of being a sneering skeptic. I went through the physical motions to the best of my ability. Decades ago I did sort of argue with my brother about it, but I've realized that this does nothing but put unnecessary stress on our relationship, so neither of us tries to argue with the other about it anymore and our relationship is much better.