• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

How to be a non-believer in a believing world

arthwollipot said:
According to my research (a quick question to Copilot) according to recent estimates approximately 84% of the global population identifies with a religious group.

Okay, strap in, because this one actually has an answer.

When you die, your spirit goes to heaven but your body is left behind to be buried or cremated or whatever. When you get resurrected in the End Times you are bodily restored so that you get to spend the rest of eternity embodied in the presence of God, and not just as a spirit.

Make sense?
Click to expand...

Christianity's roots as an apocalyptic religion has caused it the same problems as many more modern apocalyptic religions have had to face. When you are expecting the end times to be in your lifetime these issues don't really arise, when you keep having to postpone when the end times are coming it becomes yet another problem that has to be swept under the carpet.
 
Darat said:
Christianity's roots as an apocalyptic religion has caused it the same problems as many more modern apocalyptic religions have had to face. When you are expecting the end times to be in your lifetime these issues don't really arise, when you keep having to postpone when the end times are coming it becomes yet another problem that has to be swept under the carpet.
Click to expand...

When I was last visited by the Jehovah's Witnesses (over 15 years ago now), I asked when the World was going to end 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918 1925 or 1975?

The Elder said that they did not make EoW predictions any more. I did not follow up with her to hear the reason. :(
 
acbytesla said:
I use to be a Christian.

But I don't think I was ever a believer. Even as a 6 year old I just couldn't believe a woman was made out of Adam's rib. Or that a snake spoke to Eve. Or a donkey spoke to Absalom. Or that a 500 year old drunkard built a huge boat and gathered two of every animal. These are just the tip of the iceberg of the unbelievable events in the Bible.

Still, I believed in the teachings of Jesus. Love your neighbor. Be charitable and compassionate. Don't lie, don't steal, don't judge, and be quick to forgive.

That use to be enough at the church I attended. But then it wasn't. My beliefs became unacceptable and my views became blasphemous. It is so weird when you become persona non grata where you once were welcome. I never changed. The church did.

My question is how do you get along with Christians without being a phony? I've resorted to saying to Christians that I believe in Christ's teachings but not in anything else.

How do you handle it?
Click to expand...

When pressed by orthodoxy, Jesus reportedly said what is in Matt 22:37-40, summarizing the law (Pentateuch) and the prophets (Ezekiel, Isaiah, et al). Those two commands were never at the heart of the teaching of imperial Christianity, the rump faith that resulted after the gospel reached Rome. Regardless of deity or if there is a God, well understood, those were not bad command (and if no god, you certainly aren't one and do not speak for one).

"Do unto others etc" predates Christianity and is all that is or was ever needed. The rest are attempts at co-opting and using moral reasoning to gain power over others.

As for self-identified Christians, the universality of the command to love thy neighbor is where you can always, always show them to be utterly self-contradictory in their ways and, in the final analysis, traitors to their own creed. Puffery is like that.
 
It is of note that Christianity picked the Golden Rule, which is much worse than the Silver Rule ("don't do unto others what you don't want done to you ") adopted by other religions around that time.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
When pressed by orthodoxy, Jesus reportedly said what is in Matt 22:37-40, summarizing the law (Pentateuch) and the prophets (Ezekiel, Isaiah, et al). Those two commands were never at the heart of the teaching of imperial Christianity, the rump faith that resulted after the gospel reached Rome. Regardless of deity or if there is a God, well understood, those were not bad command (and if no god, you certainly aren't one and do not speak for one).

"Do unto others etc" predates Christianity and is all that is or was ever needed. The rest are attempts at co-opting and using moral reasoning to gain power over others.

As for self-identified Christians, the universality of the command to love thy neighbor is where you can always, always show them to be utterly self-contradictory in their ways and, in the final analysis, traitors to their own creed. Puffery is like that.
Click to expand...

This is all fine. But that doesn't change the reality that the Abrahamic religions and specifically Christianity preach the necessity of accepting, even embracing the ridiculous. The preaching of hell fire and damnation. It doesn't change the community that ostracizes those that don't accept their view.

I believe in the Golden Rule andI believe in telling what I see as the truth especially when someone asks if I've accepted Christ and do I love this dead man? The lord hates a forked tongue and thou shall not bear false witness. There's also a passage in the Bible (I forget which) that says God knows all my thoughts. So either way I'm kind of screwed.

Because I DON'T believe and saying I did would be a lie. If the God of the Christian Bible was real then he knows I don't believe.

Almost none of It makes sense to me. Beyond the supernatural miracles that are unbelievable. I don't believe the explanation for why the Creator of Heaven and Earth took human form so he could serve as a blood sacrifice. (scape goat) The idea of that is risible. If there is an powerful being, forgiving mankind is as simple as saying "your forgiven."

I mean for Chist sakes, God makes the Sun by saying "Let there be light." If God is all powerful, then he is not moronically stupid. He is not going to go through a needless charade.

If you believe in the trinity, then God does this as Jesus while he is preaching.
 
If you want to make your intellectual peace with the concepts of Christianity, you can take a Flatland approach: none of this stuff makes sense for us, because we lack the perspective needed, and might only glimpse it under certain circumstances.
Critically, no one else gets it either, so anyone claiming to know what it all means is full of BS. And any attempt to explain is doomed to failure.

The True Core of Western Christianity is Trust: Trust that God has a Plan, and you couldn't mess it up if you wanted to.
 
Last edited:
The Great Zaganza said:
If you want to make your intellectual peace with the concepts of Christianity, you can take a Flatland approach: none of this stuff makes sense for us, because we lack the perspective dishonesty needed, and might only glimpse it under certain circumstances.
Critically, no one else gets it either, so anyone claiming to know what it all means is full of BS. And any attempt to explain is doomed to failure.
Click to expand...
FTFY. As you said, no one else gets it either. But this isn't quantum mechanics or some complicated math where it matters little if I understand. I'm told that the difference between eternal torture and paradise is at stake if I don't eat a crap sandwich.

Crazy Chainsaw said:
The True Core of Western Christianity is Trust: Trust that God has a Plan, and you couldn't mess it up if you wanted to.
Click to expand...

Not according to most of the Christian preachers I know. They argue that people like me have already messed it up. I'm damned. I'm one of those as Pascal said, cannot believe.

This sounds a bit like a reverse tautology. But I cannot believe what is unbelievable. And despite what Pascal says, saying I do, doesn't work either. The Bible teaches that the Almighty knows every thought I have.

Then there is my personal distaste of being a fraud and putting the cart before the horse. I also can't push beyond that this is obviously a con. A deliberate attempt to secure power and respect and other benefits where none is warranted.
 
But you are being told about heaven and hell by people with no clue ( if you want to be a compatibalist, or fake to be one).

Maybe it's fine for everyone...
 
The Great Zaganza said:
But you are being told about heaven and hell by people with no clue ( if you want to be a compatibalist, or fake to be one).

Maybe it's fine for everyone...
Click to expand...

Nobody has an actual clue about heaven and hell. They do however point to scripture and dogma. They argue the Bible tells us everything. All these Christians that surround me are frustrated that I refuse to play along. How dare I think. How dare I question.

Second Corinthians
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

What I see in this and other Bible passages such as the verses about Doubting Thomas are deliberate prophylactics against questioning the con.
 
My mother took offense when I questioned something at a ccd class one year. It didn't make enough sense to shut my brain off and simply go with the flow of whatever it was.

It was expected of us to go with whatever they said in that class and we would be praised. But I couldn't do such a pointless exercise long and just tuned it all out as I sat through those classes for years.

My son sat through three weeks of first communion classes and asked me what it was all really about. He has heard all that stuff before. I didn't lie to him, it was all about keeping enough warm bodies inside a church to pay the bills.
 
acbytesla said:
Nobody has an actual clue about heaven and hell. They do however point to scripture and dogma. They argue the Bible tells us everything. All these Christians that surround me are frustrated that I refuse to play along. How dare I think. How dare I question.

Second Corinthians
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

What I see in this and other Bible passages such as the verses about Doubting Thomas are deliberate prophylactics against questioning the con.
Click to expand...
Seems like this is the heart of what you're talking about. If the kind of Christian you're talking to has biblical innerrancy as an axiom when you don't, a key part of any rational discussion on religion is lost, just as much as trying to find factual agreement with someone didn't accept the scientific method.

If you want to have an honest discussion with someone trying to share their faith, that may be a better place to start than getting into theism/atheism. On what basis do they accept that axiom and why that doesn't convince you. No reason that can't be a respectful discussion, particularly if you point to the parts of the bible you like or agree with, rather than some of the more distasteful or wildly incredible bits. Once they get that's your position, hopefully they'd understand why using the bible to prove anything to you is pretty pointless.

If they're just going to view you either as an evangelical project or a threat to their faith, that's not really any good basis for a friendship anyway.
 
8enotto said:
My mother took offense when I questioned something at a ccd class one year. It didn't make enough sense to shut my brain off and simply go with the flow of whatever it was. It was expected of us to go with whatever they said in that class and we would be praised. But I couldn't do such a pointless exercise long and just tuned it all out as I sat through those classes for years.
My son sat through three weeks of first communion classes and asked me what it was all really about. He has heard all that stuff before. I didn't lie to him, it was all about keeping enough warm bodies inside a church to pay the bills.
Click to expand...

Boy does that sound familiar.

My parents had an issue with any of us kids showing what might be viewed as disrespect to any adult. That said, I was a precocious child who questioned every teacher I had. It was how I learned. If something didn't make sense to me I would press the teacher until I did. With most teachers, they would fill in the holes of my misunderstanding and we would both be better for it.

This of course never worked in Sunday School, Vacation Bible School or Bible Camp. I learned very quickly that questions beyond the superficial was not welcome. Normally I prided myself for my dedication to learning. But due to the unacceptabillity of questions I treated this all as a social experience. The last thing I wanted to discuss with anyone was scripture.
 
Egg said:
Seems like this is the heart of what you're talking about. If the kind of Christian you're talking to has biblical innerrancy as an axiom when you don't, a key part of any rational discussion on religion is lost, just as much as trying to find factual agreement with someone didn't accept the scientific method.

If you want to have an honest discussion with someone trying to share their faith, that may be a better place to start than getting into theism/atheism. On what basis do they accept that axiom and why that doesn't convince you. No reason that can't be a respectful discussion, particularly if you point to the parts of the bible you like or agree with, rather than some of the more distasteful or wildly incredible bits. Once they get that's your position, hopefully they'd understand why using the bible to prove anything to you is pretty pointless.

If they're just going to view you either as an evangelical project or a threat to their faith, that's not really any good basis for a friendship anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm respectful of them. But not much of anything in the Bible.

I've never ever met an evangelical Christian trying to "share the good news" who wants to hear a thoughtful argument why it is unbelievable. That kind of discussion is a threat to their self identity.

I agree, it's not a good basis for any friendship. But it will always be an obstacle that prevents developing anything that might lead to a friendship.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom