How to be a non-believer in a believing world

[acbytesla]

I'll pick a nit, its not all of rural America, its the bible belt only. I grew up in a small farm town, it wasn't an issue there, isn't now.

Start by not destroying the religion. If that's your goal good luck and prepare to not have friends. As a USian, with lots of religious friends and associates, I find your problem baffling, I've been friends and even gone to church with folks that tried to convert me. It didn't take long to convince them it wasn't happening and somehow, I stayed friends.

No, it's not all of rural US. But the issue is typically more unique there. I have lived in big cities and small towns and trust me, it is an issue in many small towns. Particularly the one I live in.

And yes, I very much want to destroy religion.

 

[ahhell]

No, it's not all of rural US. But the issue is typically more unique there. I have lived in big cities and small towns and trust me, it is an issue in many small towns. Particularly the one I live in.

And yes, I very much want to destroy religion.

Well, good luck then.

 

[bruto]

Although I live in a rural area where there are many conservative Christians, it's also an area where people tend to prefer not to bother each other, and I don't think I've ever run into an intrusive evangelist in the wild, except for the traveling sort who come to the door.

For that, faking it is one option. My wife, a very lapsed former Catholic, has no problem telling the occasional door to door evangelists and such that she's already taken. She's more polite about it than I am.

But I also am not determined to destroy religion as long as it stays where it belongs. We live and die, come and go, and though I'm convinced the world doesn't care and owes us no meaning, I have little taste for evangelism in either direction.

 

[theprestige]

I think many of you misunderstand my question and the problem. I can see how it may not be a problem in Europe, or Australia or even much of a problem in the big cities here in the US.
But this is not a unique problem. Especially in rural US and the Bible belt.

I basically don't believe a word of the Bible. And I get that loving your neighbor is not necessarily unique to JC.

But we live in a social world. And trust me, Christians think they can convert me until they walk away feeling dumbfounded. I want to get along with them. I want them as friends and allies. But that can be challenge. How do you destroy the religion without destroying relationships?

You can't destroy the religion without destroying the relationship. That's pretty fundamental.

Can you give us a more specific example of a relationship you're trying to preserve, where a person you treasure and wish to have in your life keeps bringing religion into it against your wishes?

Both my parents are religious, but they generally don't bring it up unless I ask. Sometimes they slip into Christian idiom, but that doesn't bother me. I can tell the difference between a subcultural idiom and an attempt to proselytize. Part of it is that I know these people very well. I see them primarily as my beloved mother and father, whom I know well as complete human beings. I forgive many things on the strength of our close bonds of family and friendship, that I wish to preserve more than anything. I don't see them primarily as Christo-zombies who are looking to eat my brain and make me one of them.

I suppose if the grocery store clerk were addressing me in Christian terms, I'd smile and nod along with the local idiom, without feeling particularly pressured to change the way I think, or to try to change the way she thinks.

Plus, there's always someone trying to indoctrinate you into something. You don't like the local religion? Move somewhere dominated by your actual co-religionists, where your preferred idiom is the lingua franca.

 

[8enotto]

Fake it.
It's not worth your time or theirs.

They will be happy to pretend they don't live next to a demon spawn, and you will be happy not being doused in holy water when you are not looking.

US Christians are almost all illiterate when it comes to the Bible, so if they just pretend, so can you.

In deeply catholic Mexico with a smattering of hard-core fundies hating on the lax catholics faking it is easiest.

I hold to a personal moral code for various reasons and get mistaken for a fundie. So I abuse it when required. I don't drink , smoke or run with whores and somehow that has my behavior above an average lax catholic adult male. No effort required.
I don't do that stuff because it takes money away from long term personal goals and time I can spend with my son.

Don't need a god or church to have priorities above the base behaviors. But if it keeps the religious at bay I am not explaining it to them.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The most effective way to fight Religion is to bring up kids well without it.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

But we live in a social world. And trust me, Christians think they can convert me until they walk away feeling dumbfounded. I want to get along with them. I want them as friends and allies. But that can be challenge. How do you destroy the religion without destroying relationships?

If someone is that disrespectful of you why on earth do you feel the need to be social with them?

 

[ahhell]

If someone is that disrespectful of you why on earth do you feel the need to be social with them?

I don't get that, how is it disrespectful to try and save his soul? Seems like they are trying to help him out.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... And yes, I very much want to destroy religion.

"How do I get along with religious people when I want to be open and honest about my very much wishing to destroy their religion?" appears to be a rather knottier problem than the one I imagined. The simple European-style "nobody asks because hardly anyone cares" does not really cover it.

 

[Apathia]

I was a zealous Christian in my youth, I essentially outgrew it
So, I have a tendency to want to let people have their process. I'll share where I am, but not polemicize it.

I realize that most people I know are no longer in intellectual or emotional process but now have dried, fixed, compressed layers of narrative. Nothing I say alters them, so I avoid the subjects.

When I encounter their rock-solid delusions, I can't help but ask myself where I've become sedimentary.

Perhaps that's why some old fossils get wooish, just to grasp some stimulant, or have a final adventure in the aged brain.

I have a friend from our college days (now like me in his seventies) who is getting way out there in the pseudo-science.
I'm not motivated to challenge him. I just let him drone on and ask him a question or two.

Am I being co-dependent? Most likely. But sometimes it's the nicer option than shunning an old friend.

 

[ahhell]

There is good evidence on how to change minds, its basically; become their friend so they see you as already on their side then quietly and gently ask questions and point out where they are wrong. Starting with, you are wrong will just make them not want to be your friend.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

I don't get that, how is it disrespectful to try and save his soul? Seems like they are trying to help him out.

Personally, I don't have a soul, so they can just bog off and leave me alone.

 

[acbytesla]

Fake it.
It's not worth your time or theirs.

They will be happy to pretend they don't live next to a demon spawn, and you will be happy not being doused in holy water when you are not looking.

US Christians are almost all illiterate when it comes to the Bible, so if they just pretend, so can you.

Although I live in a rural area where there are many conservative Christians, it's also an area where people tend to prefer not to bother each other, and I don't think I've ever run into an intrusive evangelist in the wild, except for the traveling sort who come to the door.

For that, faking it is one option. My wife, a very lapsed former Catholic, has no problem telling the occasional door to door evangelists and such that she's already taken. She's more polite about it than I am.

But I also am not determined to destroy religion as long as it stays where it belongs. We live and die, come and go, and though I'm convinced the world doesn't care and owes us no meaning, I have little taste for evangelism in either direction.

Aye, there's the rub. I did and still do often fake it. That's the convenient thing to do most of the time. But convenient isn't necessarily the best or the right thing to do.

I'm convinced that a lot of people are faking it. Just because it's convenient. It doesn't ruffle anyone's feathers. And that plays into the theists hands. As long as a lot of people fake it, the longer religion dominates society. It truly is a case of the Emperor's Clothes. Their power isn't dependent on a lot of believers. But because they are allowed to go unchallenged.

Religion plays a role in these people's lives. As well as our own. To varying degrees, it plays a role in our business dealings and the economy as a whole. It plays a role in our politics and the liberties we enjoy.

This is why I'd like to see it destroyed. I want decisions based on evidence and facts, not fairy tales and people faking it. Religiosity is diminishing all on its own. There is a evolutionary effect where each succeeding generation becomes less religious. And then one day, the tipping point has arrived and religion's influence has been destroyed. This has definitely happened in Northern Europe.

And you can see it happening in the US in some areas. But I worry about the backlash. So this is important.

 

[acbytesla]

If someone is that disrespectful of you why on earth do you feel the need to be social with them?

Because they are my neighbors. And outside of this, we get along. And I want them as friends that I can depend on. I live in a small town. One small grocery store and 8 churches.

 

[ahhell]

I don't see much evidence that most folks will make decisions based on evidence and facts absent religion.

 

[8enotto]

A whole life is more than a closet full of mythology guiding a person. It's work, what and how that individual finds you useful. And ultimately how you find him useful to your life.

A do handyman, gardening, minor mechanics work and other odd things. Others work in.places I need to frequent for supplies or help people connect to me for work.
Why would I give a rip about a side belief that doesn't affect real world needs or requirements?

In the end the real needs override side issues to make life happen. The less toxic you are to others the better your chances are to advance.

 

[acbytesla]

You can't destroy the religion without destroying the relationship. That's pretty fundamental.
Can you give us a more specific example of a relationship you're trying to preserve, where a person you treasure and wish to have in your life keeps bringing religion into it against your wishes?

Both my parents are religious, but they generally don't bring it up unless I ask. Sometimes they slip into Christian idiom, but that doesn't bother me. I can tell the difference between a subcultural idiom and an attempt to proselytize. Part of it is that I know these people very well. I see them primarily as my beloved mother and father, whom I know well as complete human beings. I forgive many things on the strength of our close bonds of family and friendship, that I wish to preserve more than anything. I don't see them primarily as Christo-zombies who are looking to eat my brain and make me one of them.

I suppose if the grocery store clerk were addressing me in Christian terms, I'd smile and nod along with the local idiom, without feeling particularly pressured to change the way I think, or to try to change the way she thinks.

Plus, there's always someone trying to indoctrinate you into something. You don't like the local religion? Move somewhere dominated by your actual co-religionists, where your preferred idiom is the lingua franca.

I'm not convinced. I think you can destroy the religion without destroying the relationship. It's definitely not easy. And I may not be successful at it. In my view, you have to be clear, that you care about them. But you don't give an inch. In other words, I don't talk about disbelief, but not faking it either. It shouldn't be necessary for me to feel uncomfortable just so they feel comfortable.

 

[Apathia]

There is good evidence on how to change minds, its basically; become their friend so they see you as already on their side then quietly and gently ask questions and point out where they are wrong. Starting with, you are wrong will just make them not want to be your friend.

That does work once in a while.
I have a freind of thirty plus years I've done that with.
He's a true believer, though.

Funny thing is, I'll debunk one of his arguments political or religious. He'll acknowledge that his thinking with that one was flawed. But then come a few months later and he's using that same craptastik talking point again.
Of course, I point out the flaw again, but later he cranks it round again.

The sorriest of the lot is that he persists in framing LGBTQ+ issues as bad lifestyle choices and kink. Even after acknowledging the biology, he'll come round to it again, especially in his insistence that his lesbian cousin was turned to it by a sleepover at a lesbian girl's home. She calls him out on it, but to no avail.

 

[stanfr]

"How do you destroy the religion without destroying relationships?"

With great difficulty. I share your basic story, and I'll elaborate: My mother (who I adored and who was my biggest supporter and best friend) was a devout Christian and probably the closest thing to a living Saint. My father was raised Protestant (which incidentally created some tension with my mother's devout Catholic family) but he didn't attend church and never talked religion--I was raised by my mother and went to Catholic school early on. It wasn't until after my father died that I pretty much confirmed with my brother that he was likely an atheist, or at most 'agnostic' So evidently he was able to reconcile that with my mother. I was not a full blown atheist until after my mom died--watching her pray to live while spending 5 years being tortured by cancer kind of clinched it for me. So I often wonder how my mother would have reacted if I had told her my (non) beliefs. I can;t be sure, but I know she would have not stopped loving me. I think she would have seriously considered my opinions since she was extremely smart, just indoctrinated the same way most of us born-again atheists were. I doubt she would have rejected her faith, but I also doubt it would have affected our relationship significantly. Similarly, my wife (who is an atheist) has a best friend who has crosses hanging over her wall. It is not the religious beliefs that destroy the relationship, it's the person. Decent thoughtful people will chose to get along. It's tempting to say--'screw the rest' but that's where it gets tricky, because I know if some of my relatives knew my non-beliefs, I'd be unfriended and unfamilied. So I just don't bring up anything remotely religion oriented with them, and if they find out by reading my numerous online posts that make it obvious that I despise religion, that's on them, not me.

 

[theprestige]

I'm not convinced. I think you can destroy the religion without destroying the relationship. It's definitely not easy. And I may not be successful at it. In my view, you have to be clear, that you care about them. But you don't give an inch. In other words, I don't talk about disbelief, but not faking it either. It shouldn't be necessary for me to feel uncomfortable just so they feel comfortable.

Can you give us a more specific example of a relationship you're trying to preserve, where a person you treasure and wish to have in your life keeps bringing religion into it against your wishes?